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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Erwin, TN
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    330

    Default Separating neutral and grounds in a secondary panel

    Inspecting house today built in 1978. The secondary panel had what I thought was stranded copper and stranded aluminum ground wires coming from the HVAC units connect to the neutral bus bar. Am I correct by saying these are ground wires and they should be on the ground bus bar ??

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Nampa, Idaho
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    601

    Default Re: Separating neutral and grounds in a secondary panel

    Yes those ground wires and should be connected to the grounding bus bar. The bigger concern is that it's a Zinsco panel or panel that uses Zinsco breakers.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Separating neutral and grounds in a secondary panel

    Also ... see all those unused terminal holes in the neutral terminal bar?

    Yeah, there should only be ONE neutral wire in each terminal hole under each screw (one conductor in one hole under one screw).

    That's in addition to what has been previously pointed out.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    California
    Posts
    163

    Default Re: Separating neutral and grounds in a secondary panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Tarter View Post
    Yes those ground wires and should be connected to the grounding bus bar. The bigger concern is that it's a Zinsco panel or panel that uses Zinsco breakers.
    Go to inspectapedia.com and do a search for Zinsco panels, they are known fire hazards.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    684

    Default Re: Separating neutral and grounds in a secondary panel

    The picture is a bit confusing. How many A/C units are present? The panel looks like it has 4 30 AMP circuits (the green breaker handles) and possibly a range/oven circuit and "maybe" a cook top circuit. I'd expect the 30 AMP circuits to be for a dryer and A/C circuits, and the larger cables for cooking equipment.

    IF that is in fact what is present the bare wires may actually used as a neutral instead of a ground, but serving both purposes at the appliance (permitted under old codes). The problem now becomes that that was only permitted at the first panel, and only if it had a service disconnect (main breaker). If this was originally a sub (underwater, secondary, non service equipment) panel the cables should have been 4 wire from the git-go.

    I have seen installations where a local AHJ would let something like this go provided the bare conductors were insulated so that the couldn't touch the grounded box and put current on the grounding conductor to the main panel, but this is an uncommon situation and what was OK locally would need to be researched.

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 06-20-2018 at 08:21 AM.
    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Separating neutral and grounds in a secondary panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    The picture is a bit confusing.
    There are four conductors as feeders to that oanel: 2 ungrounded; 1 grounded; and 1 grounding (which is white and should be green or bare, shouldn't be white).

    There are two black breakers at the top which appear large enough (the photo is not in good enough focus to be able to zoom in see things clearly) for an oven and cooktop

    That leaves 4-30 amp circuits (green breakers) ... provided there are tie-bars between each set of 2-adjacent 30 amp breakers.

    Which could be:
    - water heater
    - air conditioning air handler (inside unit)
    - air conditioning condenser (outside unit)
    - pool/well/shop/???

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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