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  1. #1
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    Default New Panel or No?

    https://imgur.com/a/w9HGGB4

    I hope this link works. Apologies for having trouble attaching the photos directly.

    I had a home inspector out when I bought my condo earlier this year. Two things related to the electrical panel were that I had multiple neutrals on one lug, and that I had contaminants in the panel.

    An electrician came out and fixed the multiple neutrals issue, and suggested I get a new panel due to the contaminants inside. The panel otherwise is fine as far as I know, and provides plenty of electricity for my condo.

    Judging by the pictures, do you all agree I should have it replaced? Sorry if this is not the right place to post. It is just quite expensive to replace, so I wanted to get other opinions.

    Last edited by Bob Smith; 10-23-2019 at 03:40 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Yes that is the only approved way to fix a panel that is contaminated with paint. It might never give any problems but... the problems that ensue involve heat, smoke, and fire. Not something you want to mess with. You have already had two people that saw it in person tell you about the problem and at least one of them recommended replacing it. Believe them!

    Jim Luttrall
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Yes that is the only approved way to fix a panel that is contaminated with paint. It might never give any problems but... the problems that ensue involve heat, smoke, and fire. Not something you want to mess with. You have already had two people that saw it in person tell you about the problem and at least one of them recommended replacing it. Believe them!
    Thank you. That is the way I was leaning! I hate to say it, but I mostly wanted to ask strangers that seem like they'd know because of the conflict of interest inherent in the one recommending replacement being the one I'd be paying the money to, haha.

    It is a shame there is no approved way to just shut off power, remove the paint via some means approved, and then have it be good. Oh well.

    I appreciate your time, and wish you the best.


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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/w9HGGB4
    I hope this link works. Apologies for having trouble attaching the photos directly.
    I had a home inspector out when I bought my condo earlier this year. Two things related to the electrical panel were that I had multiple neutrals on one lug, and that I had contaminants in the panel.
    An electrician came out and fixed the multiple neutrals issue, and suggested I get a new panel due to the contaminants inside. The panel otherwise is fine as far as I know, and provides plenty of electricity for my condo.
    Judging by the pictures, do you all agree I should have it replaced? Sorry if this is not the right place to post. It is just quite expensive to replace, so I wanted to get other opinions.
    As Jim already said, the problem is that there is no way to determine if the buss bar has overspray on it. To the best of my knowledge, there is no "approved" method of cleaning-off the buss bars.

    I see what looks like Square D QO breakers. It may be possible to replace the buss bars, which would be less work than replacement of the entire panel.

    If it were me, I think I would contact the manufacturer, and ask if this buss bar can be purchased separately (they would probably need the model number).

    Department of Redundancy Department
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    As Jim already said, the problem is that there is no way to determine if the buss bar has overspray on it. To the best of my knowledge, there is no "approved" method of cleaning-off the buss bars.

    I see what looks like Square D QO breakers. It may be possible to replace the buss bars, which would be less work than replacement of the entire panel.

    If it were me, I think I would contact the manufacturer, and ask if this buss bar can be purchased separately (they would probably need the model number).
    I am okay having an electrician replace the whole thing so I know everything is good to go with it. Now just to shop around some!


  6. #6
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    Cool Re: New Panel or No?

    That panel is a older model and they were built like a brick Schmidt house, that being said, replacement parts are not going to be available other then circuit breakers, so my recommendation is replace it with another SQ D QO loadcenter as long as there is no additions to the circuits it will not trigger AFCI requirements, but I would replace the circuit breakers and consider a larger panel & use full size breakers with a little room for expansion.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Has anyone else noticed the different trending of this thread about contaminated panels than from, say ... even 10-15-20 years ago?

    Used to be arguments giving all the reasons why not to replace those panels ... now all are in agreement that replacement is needed.

    Nice to see that happen.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Has anyone else noticed the different trending of this thread about contaminated panels than from, say ... even 10-15-20 years ago?
    Used to be arguments giving all the reasons why not to replace those panels ... now all are in agreement that replacement is needed.
    As much as I would just love to say that the panel just has a little schmutz on it! And then pound off saying that some steel wool, lacquer thinner, and an open flame would clean it up nicely, I'm afraid that someone would take me seriously.

    Would that make you feel more at home Jerry?

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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    And then pound off saying that some steel wool, lacquer thinner, and an open flame would clean it up nicely, I'm afraid that someone would take me seriously.

    Would that make you feel more at home Jerry?
    Gunnar, you forgot the part about using acid to do a final wipe down for any remaining residue.

    Jerry Peck
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Gunnar, you forgot the part about using acid to do a final wipe down for any remaining residue.
    Lysergic, presumably.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    That panel is a older model and they were built like a brick Schmidt house, that being said, replacement parts are not going to be available other then circuit breakers, so my recommendation is replace it with another SQ D QO loadcenter as long as there is no additions to the circuits it will not trigger AFCI requirements, but I would replace the circuit breakers and consider a larger panel & use full size breakers with a little room for expansion.
    While replacement parts may be available, they won't be available from Schneider Electric. Not worth it.

    One reason to choose a new loadcenter is that you will not fit electronic QOs in their older cabinets. Even those without plug-on neutrals are too bloody wide, if you have anything much in the wiring gutters. Since even aside from safety concerns, any new circuit probably will require AFCI protection, depending on code version adopted and amendments, that's a strong argument.

    Another is that the cabinet is recessed enough that the opening probably constitutes a fire penetration. I'm also mighty uneasy about a distribution panel being held in place with Madison clip. I want those beasts mounted solidly.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    Lysergic, presumably.
    I was thinking sulfuric, but Lysergic may have induced the desire to clean it.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
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  13. #13

    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
    Thank you. That is the way I was leaning! I hate to say it, but I mostly wanted to ask strangers that seem like they'd know because of the conflict of interest inherent in the one recommending replacement being the one I'd be paying the money to, haha.

    It is a shame there is no approved way to just shut off power, remove the paint via some means approved, and then have it be good. Oh well.

    I appreciate your time, and wish you the best.
    Make sure the certified licensed electrician tells you where the unit main disconnect is located for your unit. Also ask him if he is going to apply for a permit to do a changeout and that the update requires AFCI and GFCI protection. Tell him to first check for shared neutrals that will not work with the required protection without special rewiring. The twisted EGC Bonding is clamped to a KO PLUG that is never been a legal bonding compliance. The original install is a 4 wire MLO and the terminal buss must be screwed into the enclosure chassis. I would find out if the inspector did a write up for your purchase fix requirements before purchasing this dwelling. Forget the overspray that is minimal concern. Hope this helps.


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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    While replacement parts may be available, they won't be available from Schneider Electric. Not worth it.

    One reason to choose a new loadcenter is that you will not fit electronic QOs in their older cabinets. Even those without plug-on neutrals are too bloody wide, if you have anything much in the wiring gutters. Since even aside from safety concerns, any new circuit probably will require AFCI protection, depending on code version adopted and amendments, that's a strong argument.

    Another is that the cabinet is recessed enough that the opening probably constitutes a fire penetration. I'm also mighty uneasy about a distribution panel being held in place with Madison clip. I want those beasts mounted solidly.
    Only parts still around and I was not suggesting such a course of action would be a salvage panel, not like Zinsco where there are aftermarket buss bar kits for some models available, my comment was in reply to someone suggesting repair part. As to Zinsco repair parts, somethings just need to die.


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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    Forget the overspray that is minimal concern.
    Took awhile for someone to go there...


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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    Also ask him if he is going to apply for a permit to do a changeout and that the update requires AFCI and GFCI protection.
    A lot of good suggestions and observations, but I have to disagree about the AFCIs and GFCIs. I am strongly in favor of both protections, but unless there's a local amendment, these are options.
    GFCI protection doesn't have to live in the panel;
    AFCI protection doesn't have to be added unless you either install new circuits, add outlets to existing circuits, or lengthen existing circuits by more than six feet. And the intention is 6 ft outside what's installed in the cabinet.
    I'm not certain about QOs, but in some brands AFCI designs are migrating to models that don't have GF sensing circuitry, and thus won't trip in response to inadvertent multiwire circuits. (I think I invented that term for use in Old Electrical Wiring, first ed.; not sure.)


  17. #17

    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    A lot of good suggestions and observations, but I have to disagree about the AFCIs and GFCIs. I am strongly in favor of both protections, but unless there's a local amendment, these are option.
    Even so, the local and State AHJ's may have been updated and must be noted for upgrades. As far as overspray, as long as the breakers are not painted and circuits are functional, have a certified checkout done by an insured licensed electrician. Cheaper than a changeout.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    Cheaper than a changeout.
    "Cheaper" and doing "electrical" work should be considered an oxymoron as one should not encourage doing/not doing something electrical because "It is cheaper".

    A licensed and insured electrical contractor shouldn't be the one to "sign off" on leaving that panel - that should only be done by (and is only code-wise within the scope of) a Field Evaluation Body.

    Get on FEB to approve it and I would accept their documentation.

    Of course, though, that would cost more than replacing it. And if anyone made changes to the panel afterward ... it would need to be re-field evaluated.

    Jerry Peck
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    Make sure the certified licensed electrician tells you where the unit main disconnect is located for your unit. Also ask him if he is going to apply for a permit to do a changeout and that the update requires AFCI and GFCI protection. Tell him to first check for shared neutrals that will not work with the required protection without special rewiring. The twisted EGC Bonding is clamped to a KO PLUG that is never been a legal bonding compliance. The original install is a 4 wire MLO and the terminal buss must be screwed into the enclosure chassis. I would find out if the inspector did a write up for your purchase fix requirements before purchasing this dwelling. Forget the overspray that is minimal concern. Hope this helps.
    For your first sentence, do you mean the place in the condo building where power to my whole unit is shut on and off? I will ask the installation crew when they come out, but I am fairly certain the condo maintenance people don't let owners access that, and only licensed electricians.

    I have not heard of AFCI, but on the topic of GFCI, I have a socket by my bathroom and kitchen sink that need updated to GFCIs. Unfortunately, the sockets are fairly low and the previous owner just cut the bottom off to make them fit over the granite trim. So I will have to figure out how to chip away at it to make space for putting in non-trimmed outlet coverings.

    As for the rest of the jargon, it is beyond me, but I gather that someone at some point did a poor job either installing or maintaining this electrical panel

    As for the inspector, he only noted to note have two neutrals under one lug and to have the paint/contamination in the box checked out sooner rather than later.

    I feel pretty confident I found a good company to do the new install. 4.9 or 5 out of 5 rating on various websites, local, and licensed. I will be getting a 150 amp Square D Homeline system when I find a time for them to do the install.

    Now just to save up, figure out a way to chip down the granite to fix the outlets, and save up to get a shorter microwave so the clearance between the stove top and it isn't so dang low.

    I appreciate everyone's advice and help. It is nice to know it is money that should be spent and not just a nice extra to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by david shapiro View Post
    While replacement parts may be available, they won't be available from Schneider Electric. Not worth it.

    One reason to choose a new loadcenter is that you will not fit electronic QOs in their older cabinets. Even those without plug-on neutrals are too bloody wide, if you have anything much in the wiring gutters. Since even aside from safety concerns, any new circuit probably will require AFCI protection, depending on code version adopted and amendments, that's a strong argument.

    Another is that the cabinet is recessed enough that the opening probably constitutes a fire penetration. I'm also mighty uneasy about a distribution panel being held in place with Madison clip. I want those beasts mounted solidly.
    Should competent and quality electricians recognize this and mount the new box properly and seal up around it so there isnt that gap in the recess? Or is this something that will need to be done separately? Same question in terms of stuff being held/mounted solidly.


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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    I would stay with SQ D QO over Homeline, just because QO is copper bussed, over the HOM being aluminum bussed, just because copper is the conductor of choice, it is more expensive though.


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    Thumbs up Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
    https://imgur.com/a/w9HGGB4

    I hope this link works. Apologies for having trouble attaching the photos directly.

    I had a home inspector out when I bought my condo earlier this year. Two things related to the electrical panel were that I had multiple neutrals on one lug, and that I had contaminants in the panel.

    An electrician came out and fixed the multiple neutrals issue, and suggested I get a new panel due to the contaminants inside. The panel otherwise is fine as far as I know, and provides plenty of electricity for my condo.

    Judging by the pictures, do you all agree I should have it replaced? Sorry if this is not the right place to post. It is just quite expensive to replace, so I wanted to get other opinions.
    Being this panel is in a Condo you may want to check with the condo managers this is part of the building infrastructure and they may be responsible for replacing the panel. Just a thought, worse they could do is force you to replace it which should be done anyway , but I would try to strike a deal and find out who painted the panel. You may be able to get the painting company to pay it it is basically damaged goods they caused. Laziness is the only reason they did not mask it off. I have seen a lot of these where they pull off the covers spray everything then replace the covers with no thought to all the wiring they just painted.


  22. #22

    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Bushong View Post
    Being this panel is in a Condo you may want to check with the condo managers this is part of the building infrastructure and they may be responsible for replacing the panel. Just a thought, worse they could do is force you to replace it which should be done anyway , but I would try to strike a deal and find out who painted the panel. You may be able to get the painting company to pay it it is basically damaged goods they caused. Laziness is the only reason they did not mask it off. I have seen a lot of these where they pull off the covers spray everything then replace the covers with no thought to all the wiring they just painted.
    Amen Richard,
    You got this right and the viridical advice is 'cheaper' than a wiped down panel with Lysol. In the fifty plus years of personal experience in electrical panel overspray, this example is minimal concern. I might add that if the overspray was overlooked on permitted 'sign-off' the litigators should go after the original AHJ. These inspectors might find that all the remaining condos have the same contamination. rbj


  23. #23
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    I might add that if the overspray was overlooked on permitted 'sign-off' the litigators should go after the original AHJ.
    The AHJ is NOT responsible for ANY work done by ANY contractor, not noticed during an inspection or not - the work is ONLY the responsibility of the CONTRACTOR.

    I don't understand why contractors try to blame AHJ for other contractors work ... oh, wait ... that is the reason "contractor" protecting "contractor". Got it.

    These inspectors might find that all the remaining condos have the same contamination. rbj
    Which is quite likely.

    And which means that ALL such panels would need to be replaced, not just the one under discussion.

    Why does 'if they are all that way, it must male them okay' even come up?

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
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  24. #24

    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Has anyone else noticed the different trending of this thread about contaminated panels than from, say ... even 10-15-20 years ago?

    Used to be arguments giving all the reasons why not to replace those panels ... now all are in agreement that replacement is needed.

    Nice to see that happen.
    (In your dreams....)


  25. #25
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    (In your dreams....)
    All except one hold out, it seems.

    Jerry Peck
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  26. #26
    Bob Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    I would stay with SQ D QO over Homeline, just because QO is copper bussed, over the HOM being aluminum bussed, just because copper is the conductor of choice, it is more expensive though.
    Thanks for flagging that! For some reason they just gave the quote for Homeline and no other option. I will follow up and ask how much more the copper version is. Is there a gap in price over which you would not pay? For the Homeline, they quoted me $3,000 total out of pocket for installation, parts, and having the inspector come out.

    If it is $3,500 for the copper QO version, for example, is that worth it but at $4,000 it is not?

    I do apologize for being quite ignorant of all of this. I recognize copper is a better conductor, but I am unsure what this means overall in real terms. Would an aluminum panel end up using more electricity due to being inefficient so my electric bill would go up? Would it last a shorter timeframe than the copper one? Any other significant differences? I appreciate any knowledge on the topic you care to impart on me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Bushong View Post
    Being this panel is in a Condo you may want to check with the condo managers this is part of the building infrastructure and they may be responsible for replacing the panel. Just a thought, worse they could do is force you to replace it which should be done anyway , but I would try to strike a deal and find out who painted the panel. You may be able to get the painting company to pay it it is basically damaged goods they caused. Laziness is the only reason they did not mask it off. I have seen a lot of these where they pull off the covers spray everything then replace the covers with no thought to all the wiring they just painted.
    Not a bad idea to ask the condo. Reading through the bylaws, I am 99% sure it is on me, but I sent the email anyways, just to be sure.

    As for getting the painters to pay, I think that ship has sailed. I purchased the unit in "as-is" condition, so I wouldn't think I'd have recourse to go bug painters from a few years ago over it, regardless.


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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
    Not a bad idea to ask the condo. Reading through the bylaws, I am 99% sure it is on me, but I sent the email anyways, just to be sure.
    From my experience, I would put that at closer to 99.99% and then 'round up' to 100% as I've never known of a condo claiming ownership of any units wiring ... but I guess it could happen somewhere ... which would probably last until the unit owner said 'good, this is what the condo association needs to pay for' ... after which there would be some magical reason for 'oh, wait, the unit owner does own the wiring in their unit'.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Jacks View Post
    Amen Richard,
    You got this right and the viridical advice is 'cheaper' than a wiped down panel with Lysol. In the fifty plus years of personal experience in electrical panel overspray, this example is minimal concern. I might add that if the overspray was overlooked on permitted 'sign-off' the litigators should go after the original AHJ. These inspectors might find that all the remaining condos have the same contamination. rbj
    You do know after all that experience that the panel being contaminated like that voids the warranty, which for some SQ D and CH panels is lifetime. The breaker warranty is tied to the panel warranty. You are cheating the customer if you don't start with a non contaminated panel.

    I call the AHJ, have them come out, red tag the mess, then tell the general what it's going to cost to replace it. He can figure out who is going to pay. Not doing your job if you do any less.

    Dry wallers usually get more careful about masking once they have paid to replace a panel ( or, for that matter, to replace cables that have had the ends cut off in a box by a roto-zip like tool, or slots cut in the box, etc. )

    Occam's eraser: The philosophical principle that even the simplest solution is bound to have something wrong with it.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Good news. I think maybe the company was worried I would take my business elsewhere when I asked how much more for a QO (copper) rather than Homeline (aluminum). They said it would be the same price and sent an updated estimate for me to accept that was $3,000 total for everything including the permit, but with the QO!

    Thanks for all your feedback, everyone. I will be sure to post a photo of the spiffy new panel once it is installed


  30. #30

    Default Re: New Panel or No?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    You do know after all that experience that the panel being contaminated like that voids the warranty, which for some SQ D and CH panels is lifetime. The breaker warranty is tied to the panel warranty. You are cheating the customer if you don't start with a non contaminated panel.

    I call the AHJ, have them come out, red tag the mess, then tell the general what it's going to cost to replace it. He can figure out who is going to pay. Not doing your job if you do any less.

    Dry wallers usually get more careful about masking once they have paid to replace a panel ( or, for that matter, to replace cables that have had the ends cut off in a box by a roto-zip like tool, or slots cut in the box, etc. )
    Hi Bill,
    l appreciate your better definitive comments on what I was saying. Thanks, rbj


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