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  1. #1

    Default What makes a room a bedroom?

    I know this has been discussed but as a refresher, I ran across the age old questions again from a client. Can this room be a bedroom?

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    Jeff Zehnder - Home Inspector, Raleigh, NC
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Zehnder View Post
    Can this room be a bedroom?
    Any room "can" be used as a bedroom (sleeping room in code terms).

    However, a sleeping room (bedroom) has specific requirement, which are for the saftey of a sleeping person.

    Such as:
    - EERO (emergency egress and rescue opening)
    - smoke alarms
    - carbon monoxide alarms

    And, being a habitable space, minimum requirements for:
    - natural ventilation
    - natural light
    - heat

    Those are the first things that come to mind.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Any room "can" be used as a bedroom (sleeping room in code terms).

    However, a sleeping room (bedroom) has specific requirement, which are for the saftey of a sleeping person.

    Such as:
    - EERO (emergency egress and rescue opening)
    - smoke alarms
    - carbon monoxide alarms

    And, being a habitable space, minimum requirements for:
    - natural ventilation
    - natural light
    - heat

    Those are the first things that come to mind.
    Jerry,

    Thanks for your thoughts, i guess the issues is the "common" thought from realtors is that there must be a closet?
    I have disagreed but i also comms down to "custom"

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    "Closets" are a relatively 'new' feature in bedrooms.

    Previously, furniture, known as "wardrobes" were used as 'the closet' in a 'bed'room.

    Some think of armoires, but armoires were originally used for storing arms (guns) in.

    Realtor speak is making the plain sound elegant, the small sound cozy, and making use of words to add rooms, or make rooms not suitable for some use as being desirable for that use.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    That said (my previous reply) ...

    If it is new construction, about all you can technically/legally address is what the room is as shown on the plans (and because some contractors don't want you to see the plans, see below).

    If it it a resale, and if there is a closet present, it is a safe presumption to make that the room was intended to be a bedroom at some point.

    And, if tge preponderance of the evidence leads to it being a bedroom, then all requirements for bedrooms should be looked at/for.

    If new construction and it has a closet but is being shown on the plans as a den or office, there is nothing which prohibits you form saying that the room has the appearance of a bedroom, and as a potential bedroom the room needs (list what it would need as a bedroom).

    Keeping in mind that a den or office without a closet could also be used as a bedroom.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That said (my previous reply) ...

    If it is new construction, about all you can technically/legally address is what the room is as shown on the plans (and because some contractors don't want you to see the plans, see below).

    If it it a resale, and if there is a closet present, it is a safe presumption to make that the room was intended to be a bedroom at some point.

    And, if tge preponderance of the evidence leads to it being a bedroom, then all requirements for bedrooms should be looked at/for.

    If new construction and it has a closet but is being shown on the plans as a den or office, there is nothing which prohibits you form saying that the room has the appearance of a bedroom, and as a potential bedroom the room needs (list what it would need as a bedroom).

    Keeping in mind that a den or office without a closet could also be used as a bedroom.
    Jerry,

    Thank you for your thoughts.

    Jeff Zehnder - Home Inspector, Raleigh, NC
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That said (my previous reply) ...

    If it is new construction, about all you can technically/legally address is what the room is as shown on the plans (and because some contractors don't want you to see the plans, see below).

    If it it a resale, and if there is a closet present, it is a safe presumption to make that the room was intended to be a bedroom at some point.

    And, if tge preponderance of the evidence leads to it being a bedroom, then all requirements for bedrooms should be looked at/for.

    If new construction and it has a closet but is being shown on the plans as a den or office, there is nothing which prohibits you form saying that the room has the appearance of a bedroom, and as a potential bedroom the room needs (list what it would need as a bedroom).

    Keeping in mind that a den or office without a closet could also be used as a bedroom.
    Great explanation Jerry! I would also like to know if there is anything particular about having windows in the bedroom (Not just ventilation stuff, but anything about its position and size)


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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caren James View Post
    I would also like to know if there is anything particular about having windows in the bedroom (Not just ventilation stuff, but anything about its position and size)
    Gunnar, being in California too, would be the better person to provide you with the California requirements, but here are the basics in the various codes:

    - Natural light: 8% of the floor area of the room or space
    - Natural ventilation: 4% of the floor area of the room or space
    - EERO (Emergency Escape and Rescue Opening):
    - - Maximum height above the floor to the bottom of the open window opening
    - - Minimum opening width
    - - Minimum opening height
    - - Minimum opening area:
    - - - Minimum opening area when accessible from exterior grade without the use of a ladder (a ladder in the window opening reduces the usable size of the opening)
    - - - Minimum opening area when accessible from the exterior grade with the use of a ladder (larger opening to accommodate the ladder taking up some of the opening space)
    - - Maximum height of operational hardware
    - - No screens or bars which require tools or special knowledge to open/remove
    - - Opens to a yard or public way (to allow a person a place to escape to/be rescued from)
    - - and ... I'm sure I missed something going from memory

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 08-19-2020 at 04:45 PM. Reason: "in various the codes" ... er... "in the various codes"
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    To the best of my knowledge, Jerry has covered it all. I don't know of any California amendments to the IRC on that particular item.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Gunnar, being in California too, would be the better person to provide you with the California requirements, but here are the basics in the various codes:

    - Natural light: 8% of the floor area of the room or space
    - Natural ventilation: 4% of the floor area of the room or space
    - EERO (Emergency Escape and Rescue Opening):
    - - Maximum height above the floor to the bottom of the open window opening
    - - Minimum opening width
    - - Minimum opening height
    - - Minimum opening area:
    - - - Minimum opening area when accessible from exterior grade without the use of a ladder (a ladder in the window opening reduces the usable size of the opening)
    - - - Minimum opening area when accessible from the exterior grade with the use of a ladder (larger opening to accommodate the ladder taking up some of the opening space)
    - - Maximum height of operational hardware
    - - No screens or bars which require tools or special knowledge to open/remove
    - - Opens to a yard or public way (to allow a person a place to escape to/be rescued from)
    - - and ... I'm sure I missed something going from memory
    Thank you for the insightful details!


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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - Natural light: 8% of the floor area of the room or space
    - Natural ventilation: 4% of the floor area of the room or space
    I realized my wording for the above items may need clarification;

    Minimum combined glazed area of windows for a room or space for natural light.

    Minimum combined opening area of windows for room or space for natural ventilation.

    The EERO requirements are for an individual window for that use.

    How many EERO required for each sleeping room? One.

    How many EERO when multiple windows are in a sleeping room? One.

    Try explaining to your client why only "one" of two or more similarly sized windows in a sleeping room is required to meet EERO ... and that they need to know which window to use in the middle of the night ... and how rescue responders will know which window to use ... your client's family's lives may depend on "which window" is chosen.

    Yeah, that's right, code does not address that last aspect above.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    How many EERO required for each sleeping room? One.

    How many EERO when multiple windows are in a sleeping room? One.

    Try explaining to your client why only "one" of two or more similarly sized windows in a sleeping room is required to meet EERO ... and that they need to know which window to use in the middle of the night ... and how rescue responders will know which window to use ... your client's family's lives may depend on "which window" is chosen.
    So, its better to have it in the "Opens to a yard or public way (to allow a person a place to escape to/be rescued from)"!



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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caren James View Post
    So, its better to ...
    Check the code requirements.

    In the IRC (International Residential Code), go to Section 310, Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings

    In the CRC (California Residential Code), it may also be Section 310 (depends on how much of the IRC was kept when adopted into the CRC).

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Check the code requirements.

    In the IRC (International Residential Code), go to Section 310, Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings

    In the CRC (California Residential Code), it may also be Section 310 (depends on how much of the IRC was kept when adopted into the CRC).

    Alright Thanks! @Gunnar, would you like to add on something relating to CRC (California Residential Code)?


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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caren James View Post
    So, its better to have it in the "Opens to a yard or public way (to allow a person a place to escape to/be rescued from)"!
    We have some single-family homes as well as some single-story condo units that have the sole window or door (depending on the home) from one (or more) bedrooms that open into a central courtyard. So, while these windows/doors do allow air and light, if a person uses one as an emergency exit, they could well find themselves outdoors, while still surrounded by a burning building. Really not a tremendous improvement over being in the burning house.

    The primary problem with this type of home is that there is no practical solution, short of tearing it down (or possibly burning it down) and starting all over.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    The primary problem with this type of home is that there is no practical solution, short of tearing it down (or possibly burning it down) and starting all over.
    While not an inexpensive solution, but far less expensive than tearing/burning it down, would be to retro-install an automatic fire sprinkler system.

    No more "burning" building to have to try to escape from - while not offering the same level of protection as being able to escape, it would be far better than running 'out' to a confined and enclosed courtyard.

    The IRC has an exception for sleeping rooms in basements for houses with complying fire sprinkler systems, the exception has some conditions which must be met.

    If one applied those conditions to all sleeping rooms, the level of saftey would be the same. And I'm presuming that one is not willingly intending to sacrifice the children or grandparents in the basement sleeping rooms.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The IRC has an exception for sleeping rooms in basements for houses with complying fire sprinkler systems, the exception has some conditions which must be met.
    So, instead of immolation, the person drowns as the basement fills with water?

    Yes, sprinkling would certainly be better. I was unaware that it was acceptable as an alternative. I still cannot believe they built these things though.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Yes, sprinkling would certainly be better. I was unaware that it was acceptable as an alternative.
    R310.1
    Exceptions:
    2. ... sleeping rooms in basements shall not be required to have ... provided that the basement has ...
    2.1 (the key to 2.1 is that it is referring to "provided that the basement has", otherwise the wording doesn't make sense for an "exception")
    2.2 (the key to 2.2 is the same as above, and if a basement sleeping room, which is inherently more difficult to escape from than the floors above the basement, is allowed to use these two exceptions, especially 2.2, then I can see these exceptions being applied to all ... i.e., basement and non-basement sleeping rooms ... given a matter of time when logic is raised by a contractor and the ICC code committees can't find offsetting logic (there isn't any) to apply the exceptions "only" to basements).

    Read the wording carefully and you will see what I'm referring to ... if the exceptions are allowed to stand "for basements", then logic says the exceptions should be equally good, even safer, to apply to all other sleeping rooms.

    Think about the building code and its exceptions for EERO for sprinklered buildings (see 1030.1).

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Jerry,

    I see what you are driving at. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago I inspected a townhome with a top floor bedroom that had no exterior window or door. it did have an operable skylight though. I thought that was crazy, but the agent insisted that the home was a 3 bedroom. Yes, the place was sprinkled.

    I didn't measure the skylight to verify that it met the size requirements though.

    Still seems crazy to me.

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    I thought that was crazy, but the agent insisted that the home was a 3 bedroom. Yes, the place was sprinkled.

    I didn't measure the skylight to verify that it met the size requirements though.

    Still seems crazy to me.
    Seems crazy and unsafe to me too.

    And unless the code specifically allows it, it is not code compliant.

    And just because the code allows something which seems stupid and unsafe does not mean you can't, or shouldn't, describe it in your report.

    Maybe about 15-20 years ago, I inspected several 'single family looking houses' on an island in Miami-Dade County, the island was zoned only for condos, and all except this one area had 7 story condo buildings all over the island, these six (6 planned at that time) 'single family looking houses' were 'grouped together on one parcel as a 'condo'.

    They had fixed (non-openable) impact resistant windows for all of the windows, including all bedrooms ... as allowed by the code because they were all sprinklered and had a supervised fire alarm system.

    I explained to my client the 'why' it was allowed, and added in an explanation about 'no one inside is getting through those impact resistant windows, and fire fighters and other rescue personnel would be spending precious extra time getting through those windows from the outside.

    Those 'condo units' (each separate house) sold for around $6 mil each as I recall - my first client there recommended me to the next buyer, I inspected all 6. My clients understood what they were buying.

    And one thing they were buying was a slip at the yacth club for their boat that cost more than their "condo" cost ... all things are "relative" ... but it is up to the inspector to make their client and informed buyer.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 08-27-2020 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Speelin'
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    $6 MIL for a CONDO? In the path of every hurricane that comes up the eastern seaboard and subject to storm surge? And I thought I was sitting on some expensive real estate up here in No. Cal.

    I realize these were detached, but were they the standard 3/2, 1200 sq.ft. type condo or the obscenely huge type where you could get lost and not see anyone for days?

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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    I realize these were detached, but were they the standard 3/2, 1200 sq.ft. type condo or the obscenely huge type where you could get lost and not see anyone for days?
    You'd only get lost and not see anyone else for about a day ...

    In addition to those 6, I probably inspected 10 others over the years where ... here is an example: client was buying a run down 6,000 sf house for $5 mil because it had 300 feet on a deep water canal which went directly out to Biscayne Bay, probably only a 5-10 minute ride out the canal to the bay (once they get the boat under way).

    Note: it was only $5 mil because the house was still on it, if the owners had razed the house, the cleared lot, with its old growth trees and 300 feet of deep water canal would likely have fetched $8 mil just for the lot ... that was not the only seller who left money on the table because they 'didn't want to tear the house down, let the buyer do it', only to have the buyer leave the house, put in repairs, and use it for their boat's crew, and one time the buyers actually fixed the house up and lived in it themselves.

    I wrote the house up as a "knock-down and rebuild", only to find out that my client's intent was to buy the property because it was less expensive to buy than to pay dockage fees ... even the well-heeled look for ways to reduce their expenses ... for his 115 foot boat (not "yacht" ... "boat" was his term), and for his Captain and crew (permanent 5 person crew plus the Captain) to live in the house "with some repairs" and be on the property for whenever he wanted to go out (needed a new roof as the old roof was leaking like a sieve, new windows as most were broken out, new ac units, etc).

    One of the places where I inspected a number of houses (first house was for the buyer, then most of the others was for the builder as the houses were being constructed because (his words) "I embarrassed him" with my inspection, and some other houses for buyers which were being built by other builders. Anyway, according to what I was told by some of the buyers and the builder, and putting the information together, the smaller lots sold for $4 mil each, and each buyer bought two lots ... to keep the neighbors further away (house, well landscaped vacant lot; house, well landscaped vacant lot; etc), and as soon as you signed the contract to buy the lot, your share of the community maintenance was ... $20,000 per month ... and that does not count paying for the lot, and no house either ... and, as soon as you signed the contract, you had to join the country club, also at $20,000 per month ... no riff-raff there, for sure. The first house there which I inspected was the smallest house there at 8,500 sf air conditioned living space, with the largest house I inspected there being 25,000 (master bedroom was 3,500 sf, the owners, 74 years old and his 75 year old wife, had two spaced apart master bathrooms in the master suite "because I have to pee again before I make it across the bedroom" was the reason he gave for the two master bathrooms.

    I really like doing those houses as most of my market, but some of my market was smaller houses ... 3,500-5,000 sf small.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You'd only get lost and not see anyone else for about a day ...

    In addition to those 6, I probably inspected 10 others over the years where ... here is an example: client was buying a run down 6,000 sf house for $5 mil because it had 300 feet on a deep water canal which went directly out to Biscayne Bay, probably only a 5-10 minute ride out the canal to the bay (once they get the boat under way).

    Note: it was only $5 mil because the house was still on it, if the owners had razed the house, the cleared lot, with its old growth trees and 300 feet of deep water canal would likely have fetched $8 mil just for the lot ... that was not the only seller who left money on the table because they 'didn't want to tear the house down, let the buyer do it', only to have the buyer leave the house, put in repairs, and use it for their boat's crew, and one time the buyers actually fixed the house up and lived in it themselves.

    I wrote the house up as a "knock-down and rebuild", only to find out that my client's intent was to buy the property because it was less expensive to buy than to pay dockage fees ... even the well-heeled look for ways to reduce their expenses ... for his 115 foot boat (not "yacht" ... "boat" was his term), and for his Captain and crew (permanent 5 person crew plus the Captain) to live in the house "with some repairs and some steam shower generator" and be on the property for whenever he wanted to go out (needed a new roof as the old roof was leaking like a sieve, new windows as most were broken out, new ac units, etc).

    One of the places where I inspected a number of houses (first house was for the buyer, then most of the others was for the builder as the houses were being constructed because (his words) "I embarrassed him" with my inspection, and some other houses for buyers which were being built by other builders. Anyway, according to what I was told by some of the buyers and the builder, and putting the information together, the smaller lots sold for $4 mil each, and each buyer bought two lots ... to keep the neighbors further away (house, well landscaped vacant lot; house, well landscaped vacant lot; etc), and as soon as you signed the contract to buy the lot, your share of the community maintenance was ... $20,000 per month ... and that does not count paying for the lot, and no house either ... and, as soon as you signed the contract, you had to join the country club, also at $20,000 per month ... no riff-raff there, for sure. The first house there which I inspected was the smallest house there at 8,500 sf air conditioned living space, with the largest house I inspected there being 25,000 (master bedroom was 3,500 sf, the owners, 74 years old and his 75 year old wife, had two spaced apart master bathrooms in the master suite "because I have to pee again before I make it across the bedroom" was the reason he gave for the two master bathrooms.

    I really like doing those houses as most of my market, but some of my market was smaller houses ... 3,500-5,000 sf small.
    Wow! 3500-5000 it so big houses! I understand, that your client found house for his crew, but why so big?


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    Default Re: What makes a room a bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Lambert View Post
    Wow! 3500-5000 it so big houses! I understand, that your client found house for his crew, but why so big?
    Because that is what was on the lot he was buying for his boat.

    It wasn't about "the house", it was about "the 300 foot deep water frontage lot" ... the house was a "gimme" which needed to be knocked down ... but was "good enough" for his crew to live there ... at no additional cost to him.

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