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  1. #1
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    Default ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    House has floor joints 2x10s, 16"OC, about 12-14 feet span, with no "bridging or blocking" in the
    "center areas". Floor upstairs is bouncy.
    I can not fine a code requiring "bridging", at center areas. (I do see a code for "blocking" at the ends of the joists, but only for the ends, and only if it is a 2x12+.
    IS there a code for "center bridging" of joists???
    Any help is appreciated, as I dealing with a new home builder.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    In the IRC, in 502.7, addresses what you are referring to as "blocking" at the ends, except that it applies to ALL joists regardless of size.

    Bridging, in 502.7.1, is for joists which are larger than 2x12, in which case the bridging between joists shall not be spaced more than 8' apart.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Thanks Jerry, But a further question... I read 502.7 but it only refers to the bracing / blocking at the "ends" of the joists, and only if 12"+. Is there a code / requirement for "cross bracing / x bracing" in the "center" of the joist areas? I have inspected a lot of new & older homes here in Ohio and this is the first time I have "not seen" diagonal bracing of 2x joists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    House has floor joints 2x10s, 16"OC, about 12-14 feet span, with no "bridging or blocking" in the
    "center areas". Floor upstairs is bouncy.
    I can not fine a code requiring "bridging", at center areas. (I do see a code for "blocking" at the ends of the joists, but only for the ends, and only if it is a 2x12+.
    IS there a code for "center bridging" of joists???
    Any help is appreciated, as I dealing with a new home builder.


    Last edited by Rich Sumen; 04-02-2020 at 12:36 PM.

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Thanks Jerry, But a further question... I read 502.7 but it only refers to the bracing / blocking at the "ends" of the joists, and only if 12"+.
    From the IRC: ( https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018P3 )
    - R502.7 Lateral restraint at supports.
    - - Joists shall be supported laterally at ends by full-depth solid blocking not less than 2 inches (51 mmm) nominal thickness or by attachment to a full-depth header, band or rim joist, ot to an adjoining stud or shall be otherwise provided with lateral support to precent rotation.
    - - - Exceptions.
    - - - - 1. Trusses (not typed here, not applicable to floor joists)
    - - - - 2. In Seismic Design Categories d0, d1, and D2, lateral restraint shall be provided at each intermediate support.

    Nothing in there about 12"+ that I see.

    The exceeding 12 inches (12"+) is in the Bridging section, R502.7.1

    Is there a code / requirement for "cross bracing / x bracing" in the "center" of the joist areas?
    Again, read R502.7.1 of the IRC, that addresses bridging. ( https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IR...Ch05_SecR502.7 )

    I have inspected a lot of new & older homes here in Ohio and this is the first time I have "not seen" diagonal bracing of 2x joists.
    That's 'better design and construction', code is "minimum" design and construction, actually, code is the most unsafe/least safe on is legally allowed to build something ... code is not 'good', 'better' or 'best' (not even 'good' practices, only "minimum" practices).

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    OK, Well.... 502.7.1 States "blocking / bridging" is only required for joists exceeding 2 x 12", but no notes about any cross bracing in "center joist areas". (my original question). If that's all there is, I guess "center area" "bracing / bridging" would not be required. (seems odd to me, and just dumb not to do).
    As always, thanks for your help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the IRC: ( https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2018P3 )
    - R502.7 Lateral restraint at supports.
    - - Joists shall be supported laterally at ends by full-depth solid blocking not less than 2 inches (51 mmm) nominal thickness or by attachment to a full-depth header, band or rim joist, ot to an adjoining stud or shall be otherwise provided with lateral support to precent rotation.
    - - - Exceptions.
    - - - - 1. Trusses (not typed here, not applicable to floor joists)
    - - - - 2. In Seismic Design Categories d0, d1, and D2, lateral restraint shall be provided at each intermediate support.

    Nothing in there about 12"+ that I see.

    The exceeding 12 inches (12"+) is in the Bridging section, R502.7.1



    Again, read R502.7.1 of the IRC, that addresses bridging. ( https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IR...Ch05_SecR502.7 )



    That's 'better design and construction', code is "minimum" design and construction, actually, code is the most unsafe/least safe on is legally allowed to build something ... code is not 'good', 'better' or 'best' (not even 'good' practices, only "minimum" practices).



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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    OK, Well.... 502.7.1 States "blocking / bridging" is only required for joists exceeding 2 x 12", but no notes about any cross bracing in "center joist areas". (my original question). If that's all there is, I guess "center area" "bracing / bridging" would not be required. (seems odd to me, and just dumb not to do).
    As always, thanks for your help.
    I don't know how much simpler I can make the answer, maybe typing in the code section and using underlining and bold?

    R502.7.1 Bridging.
    Joists exceeding a nominal 2 inches by 12 inches (51 mm by 305 mm) shall be supported laterally by solid blocking, diagonal bridging (wood or metal) or a continuous 1-inch by 3-inch (25 mm by 76 mm) strip nailed across the bottom of the joists perpendicular to the joists at intervals not exceeding 8 feet (2438 mm).

    That not only specifically addressing diagonal bridging (which is what you asked about), it also address solid blocking, and another alternative, but it also specifically addresses your "center area" you asked about by stating that the bridging you asked about (or the solid blocking, or the alternative) shall not be spaced greater than 8 feet apart (that "center area" ... given that R502.7 addresses 'the ends', R502.7.1 addresses 'the center area' 'between the ends').

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    OK, Well maybe I have to use "bold, and underlining & red" to get you to understand what "my question" was about..... The question pertained to "A House with floor Joists that are 2x10s"

    502.7.1 appears to addresses "
    Joists exceeding a nominal 2 inches by 12 inches",
    or am I "reading it / understanding it" wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I don't know how much simpler I can make the answer, maybe typing in the code section and using underlining and bold?

    R502.7.1 Bridging.
    Joists exceeding a nominal 2 inches by 12 inches (51 mm by 305 mm) shall be supported laterally by solid blocking, diagonal bridging (wood or metal) or a continuous 1-inch by 3-inch (25 mm by 76 mm) strip nailed across the bottom of the joists perpendicular to the joists at intervals not exceeding 8 feet (2438 mm).

    That not only specifically addressing diagonal bridging (which is what you asked about), it also address solid blocking, and another alternative, but it also specifically addresses your "center area" you asked about by stating that the bridging you asked about (or the solid blocking, or the alternative) shall not be spaced greater than 8 feet apart (that "center area" ... given that R502.7 addresses 'the ends', R502.7.1 addresses 'the center area' 'between the ends').



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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    OK, Well maybe I have to use "bold, and underlining & red" to get you to understand what "my question" was about..... The question pertained to "A House with floor Joists that are 2x10s"

    502.7.1 appears to addresses "
    Joists exceeding a nominal 2 inches by 12 inches",
    or am I "reading it / understanding it" wrong?
    You are reading that correctly.

    So ... what does that tell you about what is required for 2x12 and smaller?

    THAT is the answer to YOUR question.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Bridging holds the joists in line and helps distribute the load carried by the floor unit. It is usually required when the joist spans are more than 8 feet.

    It?s considered good practice by many (myself included) to install blocking or cross bridging at 8? intervals to help stiffen floor framing, but it?s only required for joists larger than 2x12 (nominal depth-width ratio > 6).


    Yes, I get it, and congratulations. You were able to answer the question, without a direct answer! (A bit tiring, and drawn out). A suggestion, as this is a ?help forum??.
    With a direct question, in this case? (Is there a code requiring 2x10s, 16"OC, about 12-14 feet in span, to have "bridging or bracing" in the "center areas"), could have been better communicated, with a simple direct answer. I.e. ?No code requires a 2x10 floor joist, to have center bridging or bracing. The only related reference to this is "R502.7.1 Bridging", but that would only apply to 2x12 joists or greater?.
    A great ?code man?, you are.
    A great commutator, you are not!



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You are reading that correctly.

    So ... what does that tell you about what is required for 2x12 and smaller?

    THAT is the answer to YOUR question.



  10. #10
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Bridging holds the joists in line and helps distribute the load carried by the floor unit. It is usually required when the joist spans are more than 8 feet.
    "Required" by what/whom?

    'Necessary' for (whatever reason) is not the same as "required".

    It?s considered good practice by many (myself included) to install blocking or cross bridging ...
    That would be the better way to say it.

    Yes, I get it, and congratulations. You were able to answer the question, without a direct answer! (A bit tiring, and drawn out).
    Actually, that was the very same answer I first gave, you just kept asking for different wording in the answer, and I finally arrived at wording which got the answer across.

    "(A bit tiring, and drawn out)" - yes, getting to wording which you would accept was, but which was the same answer that was first given.

    A suggestion, as this is a ?help forum??.
    With a direct question, in this case? (Is there a code requiring 2x10s, 16"OC, about 12-14 feet in span, to have "bridging or bracing" in the "center areas"), could have been better communicated, with a simple direct answer. I.e. ?No code requires a 2x10 floor joist, to have center bridging or bracing. The only related reference to this is "R502.7.1 Bridging", but that would only apply to 2x12 joists or greater?.
    A great ?code man?, you are.
    A great commutator, you are not!
    A suggestion from this end is to think about what you read ... and consider not only what it states "is required", but also what is not stated as being required.

    My first answer:
    In the IRC, in 502.7, addresses what you are referring to as "blocking" at the ends, except that it applies to ALL joists regardless of size.

    Bridging, in 502.7.1, is for joists which are larger than 2x12, in which case the bridging between joists shall not be spaced more than 8' apart.


    My last (previous) answer:
    You are reading that correctly.

    So ... what does that tell you about what is required for 2x12 and smaller?

    THAT is the answer to YOUR question.


    My answer never changed, I just had to word it so you would accept it.

    You started off asking about code, thus I made the presumption that you understood codes and their wording.

    Codes not only address what 'is required' (by stating it), but also addresses what 'is not stated as required' (i.e., 'not required') by not stating it as being required.


    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Its so easy... once again, and in looking at what you must see as "your defense", you just made my point. We're not in a court of law, just people looking, for basic help on mostly simple questions.
    Once again..... A great commutator, you are not.
    (I'm not sure if this is "entertainment" to you, or it's just the way you are)
    A little of both is my guess!

    Again, Thank you (kinda)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "Required" by what/whom?

    'Necessary' for (whatever reason) is not the same as "required".



    That would be the better way to say it.



    Actually, that was the very same answer I first gave, you just kept asking for different wording in the answer, and I finally arrived at wording which got the answer across.

    "(A bit tiring, and drawn out)" - yes, getting to wording which you would accept was, but which was the same answer that was first given.



    A suggestion from this end is to think about what you read ... and consider not only what it states "is required", but also what is not stated as being required.

    My first answer:


    My last (previous) answer:


    My answer never changed, I just had to word it so you would accept it.[/COLOR]



  12. #12
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Its so easy... once again, and in looking at what you must see as "your defense", you just made my point. We're not in a court of law, just people looking, for basic help on mostly simple questions.
    Once again..... A great commutator, you are not.
    (I'm not sure if this is "entertainment" to you, or it's just the way you are)
    A little of both is my guess!

    Again, Thank you (kinda)
    It's not "entertainment" for me, sometimes it just takes working through an answer which is plainly given: i.e. the code states 'what is required', therefore, when the code does not state something as being required, it is 'not required'.

    Likewise, when you asked about the 'center area' and acknowledged that there was a different requirement for 'the ends', and the code addresses the 'center area' with diagonal bridging not to exceed 8 feet.

    All the information was given in that first answer, I just had to work through the parts you did not understand, and to do that, I first had to figure out what parts you did not understand.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Yes, it does address the "center area" but that code would not apply with 2x10 joists. Correct?

    The question was simple;
    [
    House has floor joints 2x10s, 16"OC, about 12-14 feet span, with no "bridging or blocking" in the
    "center areas". Floor upstairs is bouncy.]
    The answer was not!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It's not "entertainment" for me, sometimes it just takes working through an answer which is plainly given: i.e. the code states 'what is required', therefore, when the code does not state something as being required, it is 'not required'.

    Likewise, when you asked about the 'center area' and acknowledged that there was a different requirement for 'the ends', and the code addresses the 'center area' with diagonal bridging not to exceed 8 feet.

    All the information was given in that first answer, I just had to work through the parts you did not understand, and to do that, I first had to figure out what parts you did not understand.



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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Yes, it does address the "center area" but that code would not apply with 2x10 joists. Correct?
    INCORRECT!

    I thought you got that part of it.

    THAT SECTION DOES apply to 2x10 joists.

    The requirement in that section IS FOR intermediate bridging/blocking for LARGER THAN 2x12 nominal floor joists.

    There IS NO requirement in that section FOR intermediate bridging/blocking fir 2x12 nominal AND SMALLER floor joists.

    That section applies TO ALL sizes of floor joists, you just need read what it says ... and does not say.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    OK, Back to square one i guess. I read this section (502.7.1 below) and the words in it pertain to "Joists exceeding 2x12". So how would this apply to 2x10s? (Sorry, I'm just not seeing it)
    What "code section" does show a bridging requirement for these "less than 2x12" joists?
    ....
    R502.7.1 Bridging
    .
    Joists exceeding a nominal 2 inches by 12 inches(51 mm by 305 mm) shall be supported laterally bysolid blocking, diagonal bridging(wood or metal) or a continuous 1-inch by 3-inch
    (25 mm by 76 mm) strip nailed across the bottom of the joists perpendicular to the joists at intervals not exceeding 8 feet(2438 mm).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    INCORRECT!

    I thought you got that part of it.

    THAT SECTION DOES apply to 2x10 joists.

    The requirement in that section IS FOR intermediate bridging/blocking for LARGER THAN 2x12 nominal floor joists.

    There IS NO requirement in that section FOR intermediate bridging/blocking fir 2x12 nominal AND SMALLER floor joists.

    That section applies TO ALL sizes of floor joists, you just need read what it says ... and does not say.


    Last edited by Rich Sumen; 04-03-2020 at 11:00 AM.

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    OK, Back to square one i guess. I read this section (502.7.1 below) and the words in it pertain to "Joists exceeding 2x12". So how would this apply to 2x10s? (Sorry, I'm just not seeing it)
    That section "requires" bridging for floor joists which are larger than 2x12 nominal, correct?

    That section "does not" "require" bridging for floor joists which are 2x12 and smaller, correct?

    That means that, as minimum requirements (which is what the code is), no bridging is required for 2x10 (which are smaller than 2x12) floor joists.

    Is bridging a good 'construction practice'? Yes. But ...

    Yes. But ... ???

    Yes, bridging is a good construction practice, but ... would you put bridging between 2x10 floor joists which span 8 feet? Likely not.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Finally, a common sense answer. (Bridging, not required for joists that are 2x10s).
    This should have been on page one, and I would have had my answer with
    about 2,000 less words exchanged.
    Thank you Jerry Peck!
    I'll continue to work on my "code knowledge" and.....
    Hopefully, You'll work on those "communication skills"!
    Have a great evening.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That section "requires" bridging for floor joists which are larger than 2x12 nominal, correct?

    That section "does not" "require" bridging for floor joists which are 2x12 and smaller, correct?

    That means that, as minimum requirements (which is what the code is), no bridging is required for 2x10 (which are smaller than 2x12) floor joists.

    Is bridging a good 'construction practice'? Yes. But ...

    Yes. But ... ???

    Yes, bridging is a good construction practice, but ... would you put bridging between 2x10 floor joists which span 8 feet? Likely not.



  18. #18
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Rich,

    I'm curious - if you were given a bucket of black paint and you were told to paint all of the floor joists larger than 2x12 black ... what color would you paint 2x10 floor joists?

    Just curious.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    It was a simple question;
    "
    Is there a code for "center bridging" of 2x10 joist?"
    You answers, & answers, & answers, were not.
    It could have easliy been communated with "No, the only applicaple code, applies to 2x12+ joists".

    "Work on those communication skills". (Your exhausting)


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rich,

    I'm curious - if you were given a bucket of black paint and you were told to paint all of the floor joists larger than 2x12 black ... what color would you paint 2x10 floor joists?

    Just curious.



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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Yes, a simple question.

    And no answer from you.

    I asked this simple question, I'm still waiting for an answer.

    I'll make the question even easier:

    You are not given any paint, just told to paint floor joists which are larger than 2x12 black.

    What color would you paint 2x10 floor joists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Rich,

    I'm curious - if you were given a bucket of black paint and you were told to paint all of the floor joists larger than 2x12 black ... what color would you paint 2x10 floor joists?

    Just curious.


    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Your "Smart A$$" question, does not deserve an answer!
    (You truly are, "a legend, in your own mind").
    Please stop, go away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes, a simple question.

    And no answer from you.

    I asked this simple question, I'm still waiting for an answer.

    I'll make the question even easier:

    You are not given any paint, just told to paint floor joists which are larger than 2x12 black.

    What color would you paint 2x10 floor joists?



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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Your "Smart A$$" question, does not deserve an answer!
    It's not a " "Smart A$$" question".

    YOU SAID:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    I'll continue to work on my "code knowledge" and.....
    Hopefully, You'll work on those "communication skills"!
    I'm working on my "communication skills" - IF that question is easily understood, my communication skills were good (it's the same question, just took "code think" out of it); however, IF that question was not easily understood, then I'm asking for your help in finding out why.

    YOU were going to work on your "code knowledge" - IF you understood that question (with "code think" out of it), then, yes, you need to work on your "code knowledge" and how you think about the code.

    It's really a good example of how to think about those types of code sections ... and, apparently, you did not really mean it when you said you'd work on your "code knowledge" ... I took you at what you said.

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?


    You just keep making my point (over and over.)
    It would be fairly clear to anyone reading this ?thread?, that your ?know it all attitude?, coupled with your ?arrogance & condescending attitude? (clearly on display here), is not only present, but may also be something that you may not even see. (sad).
    Please ?GO AWAY?, and annoy someone else that needs your ?I Can Search A Code? skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It's not a " "Smart A$$" question".

    YOU SAID:



    I'm working on my "communication skills" - IF that question is easily understood, my communication skills were good (it's the same question, just took "code think" out of it); however, IF that question was not easily understood, then I'm asking for your help in finding out why.

    YOU were going to work on your "code knowledge" - IF you understood that question (with "code think" out of it), then, yes, you need to work on your "code knowledge" and how you think about the code.

    It's really a good example of how to think about those types of code sections ... and, apparently, you did not really mean it when you said you'd work on your "code knowledge" ... I took you at what you said.



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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    you guys married


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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    you guys married
    Charlie,

    Definitely not!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    Please ?GO AWAY?, and annoy someone else that needs your ?
    I'm here for anyone who wants to ask questions.

    You? You are going off the deep end ... er ... have gone off the deep end ... which is a sign of having little else to say that actually applies.

    Jerry Peck
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Yup, Little more to say.
    Best of luck with your "mental / psychological"issues.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Charlie,

    Definitely not!



    I'm here for anyone who wants to ask questions.

    You? You are going off the deep end ... er ... have gone off the deep end ... which is a sign of having little else to say that actually applies.



  27. #27

    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Sumen View Post
    House has floor joints 2x10s, 16"OC, about 12-14 feet span, with no "bridging or blocking" in the
    "center areas". Floor upstairs is bouncy.
    I can not fine a code requiring "bridging", at center areas. (I do see a code for "blocking" at the ends of the joists, but only for the ends, and only if it is a 2x12+.
    IS there a code for "center bridging" of joists???
    Any help is appreciated, as I dealing with a new home builder.
    Rich this was common practice until the 1980's when framers started using plywood and glue to make the floor system act as one unit. We no longer use bridging for the same reason we do not use 1x12 boxing on the walls or 1x4 sheeting and wood shingels. Move on and join the modern world.


  28. #28
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    Feb 2011
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    Ohio
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    Default Re: ""Bridging Required" for the center of floor joist span?

    Yes, I get it, but since I have never seen them "missing", and since I was dealing with a new build and a bouncy floor, I just wanted to be sure I was not "missing a code", but thanks for the input.
    FYI, My frustration was not with "no codes apply", it was dealing with "Mr. arrogant"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Hawley View Post
    Rich this was common practice until the 1980's when framers started using plywood and glue to make the floor system act as one unit. We no longer use bridging for the same reason we do not use 1x12 boxing on the walls or 1x4 sheeting and wood shingels. Move on and join the modern world.



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