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Thread: Floor Sinks

  1. #1
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    Default Floor Sinks

    I inspected a building yesterday with a restaurant as one of the tenants. I typically don't address tenant improvements, but I did notice that the floor sinks were flush with the level of the floor tile.

    I remember years ago at a restaurant build-out, the inspector (City of Fullerton, Orange County) made us pull the floor sinks out and raise them (I think it was 3/8") so they weren't flush with the floor tile.

    I cannot find any such requirement in the UPC (421.0) that specifies the height of the floor sink, flood rim, or anything like that. Does anyone know if there is a requirement and where it would be? (Other than the UPC, that is.)

    Thanks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    I did a bit more searching and found a reference from Contra Costa that requires flush mount and mentions that some areas require an elevated rim. This seems pretty arbitrary.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    I do a fair amount of Bar and Restaurant inspections. From my experience Municipalities have specific requirements for such establishments. Also some of the requirements will fall under the State Health Dept. The Code will typically cover the space. The Municipality or State will typically govern systems related to a specific use of that space. In general a sink would fall under the plumbing code. For that installation that could fall under Health Dept guidelines given concerns about how sanitary or not it could end up.

    Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. It sounds like you are talking about a floor recessed janitor slop / mop sink. Never seen one flush with the floor before. The fiberglass ones everyone installs around here typically have at least a 6" curb. Basically a high curb ugly shower base.
    If its flush with the floor then I would wonder about how deep it is and how the joists are structured underneath it. Did somebody turn a 2x12 joist effectively into a 2x6 joist in order to install that sink / shower base flush because 'dude that's a great idea'.

    I would punt on the sink unless I really like the client and spend my time concentrating on the potential structural concerns underneath it. Let the licensing inspector handle the sink.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Marcus,

    No not a mop sink. These are small (12"x12") and this restaurant is on a concrete slab, so no joist issues. Even so, they would easily fit between joists. If you regularly do bar/restaurant inspections, then you should be familiar with them. https://www.zurn.com/products/buildi...ge/floor-sinks

    In the UPC, the restaurant sinks and other appliances that need to drain water (ice maker, etc.) must drain into an indirect receptor. Not sure what you Chicago-ans would call it. Maybe "floor receptor"? Out here (and in the UPC) it's a floor sink.

    It looks like it's a health department issue, at least here in sunny CA. They make the decision as to whether or not the rim is flush with the finished floor or raised slightly.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    The IPC says this (which is as little help):

    414.1 Approval.
    Sanitary floor sinks shall conform to the requirements of ASME A112.6.7.

    I searched for ASME A112.6.7 but was unsuccessful in finding a file of it, only the Table of Contents as best.

    However, a Google search for "floor sinks" did reveal some which were flush with the floor and had a grate, also splash side guards for back & right side; back & left side; back, right side, & left side were the splash guard options.

    If flush with the floor, or nearly flush with the floor, those may require a grate and splash guards, and may be trip and fall hazards without such?

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Oh yeah, definite disconnect between what you meant and what I thought. We generally call those floor receptors, or sometimes floor drains around here. Don't know anybody around here who calls those floor sinks. Somebody probably does but not the more common vernacular.
    Can't remember how many times I've written those up as trip hazards because the grate was missing.

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    ... We generally call those floor receptors, or sometimes floor drains around here.
    I didn't look up "floor receptors" in the UPC, so maybe there is more information. I would not call it a "floor drain" though, because that makes me think of a drain inlet, like you would see in a shower or a public restroom.

    https://www.zurn.com/products/buildi...-shower-drains

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Don't know anybody around here who calls those floor sinks. Somebody probably does but not the more common vernacular.
    Agreed, while these products are listed as "sinks" no one in my area refers to them with that description. Routinely called "floor drain" around here, and the covers are frequently missing, cracked, clogged etc. etc.


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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    This is what I was referring to:
    https://www.webstaurantstore.com/adv...GoogleShopping

    I searched for floor sinks, which I've always called mop sinks, and realized that there actually are things called floor sinks (which are different than floor drains - learn something new everyday).

    The mop sink Gunnar is referring to looks like there are some which are flush with the floor and which "Floor flush fit allows mop bucket to easily roll in".

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The mop sink Gunnar is referring to looks like there are some which are flush with the floor and which "Floor flush fit allows mop bucket to easily roll in".
    Jerry,

    I may have misunderstood you, but I am referring to a small (12" x 12" x 6"H) receptor that looks like a small sink, but is installed in the floor. There is no way a mop bucket would fit in one of these.

    This is used under the kitchen prep and wash sinks (except the one with the disposal) to provide an air gap between the sink and the building drain system. The tailpiece from the sink (or ice maker drain, or whatever) is elevated above the floor receptor/sink. I believe that Dom and I are talking about the same thing.

    This might be a regional thing, but out here, a floor drain is more like a shower drain. A grate that is flush with the floor. The same type of receptor is used for showers and bathroom floors, except a floor drain would typically have a trap primer to ensure the trap does not dry out.

    I have only seen floor sinks in restaurants.

    I guess I should have posted the pics along with my original post. The first and second would be "floor sinks" and the last one would be a "floor drain" out here on the left coast.

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Gunnar,

    Ah, I see ... says the blind man.

    You actually are referring to a "floor sink".

    I thought you were referring to a "mop sink".

    With floor drains, yes, basically like a shower drain in the floor.

    A floor sink is basically a floor drain recessed below the floor surface enough for a small "sink" to be installed between the floor drain connection and the floor surface. Floor sinks have a grade over them, and are larger in diameter than the typical floor drain.

    I don't recall having seen any floor sinks which were raised up above the floor surface, all have been flush with the floor.

    I also had the habit (a bad habit) of referring to those as floor "drains".

    They are common under commercial food preparation sinks, with the drain from the sink extending just through the grate, but not down to the actual drain below, creating an "air break" (versus an "air gap"). I don't recall whether an "air gap" was required (I retired from code inspections on 2015, and I don't have those types of things still stored in my 286-based brain memory).

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 12-03-2020 at 11:42 AM. Reason: speelin' ... "surface" was "sutface"
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    They are common under commercial food preparation sinks, with the drain from the sink extending just through the grate, but not down to the actual drain below, creating an "air break" (versus an "air gap"). I don't recall whether an "air gap" was required (I retired from code inspections on 2015, and I don't have those types of things still stored in my 286-based brain memory).
    I looked it up, they are supposed to have an air gap between the bottom of the waste pipe and the top of the grate (the overflow rim). That is probably why I remember them ... because so many had "air breaks" instead of "air gaps" ... so I would write them up (which typically meant replacing the grate as they were all cut up).

    Here is an example: https://permadrain.com/wet-floors/

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ... creating an "air break" (versus an "air gap"). I don't recall whether an "air gap" was required (I retired from code inspections on 2015, and I don't have those types of thing...
    Great... Now I have to look up "air break" and compare the definition to "air gap".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I don't recall having seen any floor sinks which were raised up above the floor surface, all have been flush with the floor.
    The really weird thing (at least to me) was that the inspector (might have been health - I don't remember because this memory date back to probably 1985) wanted the rim of the sink elevated 1/4" - 3/8". I could not imagine why that teeny amount would matter, except that it could not be used to sluice water into with a mop.

    I also posted this on another message board (CA based) and, at least out here on the left coast, this is up to the local health department. Apparently, Sonoma County wants the floor receptors flush with the finished floor.

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Ohhhh - Kaaaay...

    I just looked up the UPC definitions of those two (actually three) terms and I cannot picture an "air brake".

    Air Break. A physical separation which may be a low inlet into the indirect waste receptor from the fixture, appliance, or device indirectly connected.

    Air Gap, Drainage. The unobstructed vertical distance through the free atmosphere between the lowest opening from a pipe, plumbing fixture, appliance, or appurtenance conveying waste to the flood-level rim of the receptor.

    Air Gap, Water Distribution. The unobstructed vertical distance through the free atmosphere between the lowest opening from a pipe or faucet conveying potable water to the flood-level rim of a tank, vat, or fixture.

    I get the definitions of both air gaps. Physical distance between the source (pipe, spout, whatever) and the thing into which water is flowing (sink, tub, drain, whatever).

    I can't picture how you can have an inlet that is low, but still have it provide a separation. Could an example be a toilet tank?

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Using my phone, but I found an image to link to:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/ivP9Qo1dS1ED2duc8

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Jerry,

    The diagram seems to indicate that the difference is that an "air break" does not have to be above the flood rim like the "air gap" does.

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    Default Re: Floor Sinks

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    The diagram seems to indicate that the difference is that an "air break" does not have to be above the flood rim like the "air gap" does.
    Correct.

    An air "gap" has a gap of air between the discharge and the flood level rim of what is below it; an air "break" is just a "break" in the air between the end of the discharge and the trap seal.
    An air gap has a minimum of 1" "air" "gap" between the two, and that minimum is increases with the diameter of the discharge pipe - See Table 608.16.1 Minimum Required Air Gaps:
    https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IP...P1_Ch06_Sec608

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