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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
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    California
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    80

    Default Not a roofing expert...but...

    Ok, as the header sttes, I am not a roofing expert, so I wanted to get some opinions on the attached pictures.
    They show spaced sheathing, with Ceramic tiles placed directly on top of them.
    For some reason I do not think this is 'kosher'



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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    1,592

    Default Re: Not a roofing expert...but...

    In many areas or locales, tile on skip sheathing (or structural sheathing boards) was/is allowed, often installed with no underlayment.

    Manufacturer's install specifications or local building codes/practices will prevail. I see it from time to time here, usually has underlayment, always is an older install. Not allowed in my region any longer.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Posts
    3,154

    Default Re: Not a roofing expert...but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Reilly View Post
    Ok, as the header sttes, I am not a roofing expert, so I wanted to get some opinions on the attached pictures.
    They show spaced sheathing, with Ceramic tiles placed directly on top of them.
    For some reason I do not think this is 'kosher'
    Hey there Joe,

    Where are you located (other than California)?

    These are concrete tiles, not ceramic. This is typical of concrete tile roof installation from the 1970s and early 1980s and used to be really common in my area of California (north of S.F.). Tile on skip sheathing, single flashings at roof/wall, through penetrations, etc. No felt paper under the tile. I have heard that these roofs came with a "lifetime" warranty. The question is - whose lifetime? The roofer, the manufacturer, the house, the original owner, or the roof? Well, the roof has lived it's life. Warranty over.


    I have received differing opinions on this type of installation. Some roofers say that these are fine, the installers had to know what they were doing in order to prevent leaks and too many roofers today don't know what they are doing and rely on the felt underlayment to prevent leaks resulting from poor installation. Other roofers state (not unreasonably) that manufacturers no longer approve this type of installation because they are prone to leaking.

    Another comment that I have heard is that the glaze on the tile degrades over the years, and since concrete is porous, water will leak through the tiles. I have never seen leaking due to porous concrete, but I suppose it is possible. The peeling that I see in your first image looks to me like someone painted the tiles to make them look pretty, but either did not clean/prep properly or used house paint, which will peel off rather quickly.


    As you look up in the attic, you will naturally see daylight, but as long as the tiles and flashings overlap correctly, they won't leak (at least under normal circumstances). Wind-driven rain is another thing though. If that house is in an area that gets moderate to strong winds, then that roof could well leak, even if there are no broken/displaced tiles. Your second, third, and fourth pics have a pretty bright spot which could indicate a broken/displaced tile. I also typically see a lot of debris in attics with this type of roof installation. Evidence of rodents as well. The attics tend to remain cooler in the summer though.


    To the best of my knowledge (presuming that this roof dates from those years that I mentioned) this is an approved installation and is not necessarily a defect. However, there is no secondary layer, so if a tile is displaced or broken (often happens), if debris blocks flashings (happens as well), or if they get moderate to strong wind, water will flow into the attic.

    Also, the lead flashings are typically aged and often are split/damaged. From the pics that you provided, I am guessing that you didn't walk the roof. If that is the case, at a minimum, I would recommend review of the roof and flashings by a licensed roofing contractor.

    When I inspect a house with this type of roof, I let them know as much as I can. Some inspectors in my area recommend replacement of the roof. I stop short of that, but I do let them know that this is an old roof installation, the type of roof is more prone to leaking due to the conditions that I mentioned, that only trained and insured people should walk on the roof (walking on tile can result in broken tiles), that this roof will require annual maintenance to check for damage and remove debris, and if they want more information, they should talk to a licensed roofing contractor (who will probably recommend a new roof).

    More and more, people are replacing these old roofs. I mean, they are 40-50 years old now.

    I hope this helps.


    Department of Redundancy Department
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  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fletcher, NC
    Posts
    28,032

    Default Re: Not a roofing expert...but...

    Keep in mind that, on those types of tile roof installations, any crack in any tile is a "roof leak".

    Jerry Peck
    Construction/Litigation/Code Consultant - Retired
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    2,048

    Default Re: Not a roofing expert...but...

    Making a couple assumptions here but I would write that roof up as being done.
    Assuming the red color is the original impervious glazing and the buff color is the underlying cement pour structure of the tile, water will start seeping through the tiles and come in.
    Once water soaks the tiles and creates little fissures those only get worse.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    California
    Posts
    80

    Default Re: Not a roofing expert...but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Hey there Joe,

    Where are you located (other than California)?

    These are concrete tiles, not ceramic. This is typical of concrete tile roof installation from the 1970s and early 1980s and used to be really common in my area of California (north of S.F.). Tile on skip sheathing, single flashings at roof/wall, through penetrations, etc. No felt paper under the tile. I have heard that these roofs came with a "lifetime" warranty. The question is - whose lifetime? The roofer, the manufacturer, the house, the original owner, or the roof? Well, the roof has lived it's life. Warranty over.


    I have received differing opinions on this type of installation. Some roofers say that these are fine, the installers had to know what they were doing in order to prevent leaks and too many roofers today don't know what they are doing and rely on the felt underlayment to prevent leaks resulting from poor installation. Other roofers state (not unreasonably) that manufacturers no longer approve this type of installation because they are prone to leaking.

    Another comment that I have heard is that the glaze on the tile degrades over the years, and since concrete is porous, water will leak through the tiles. I have never seen leaking due to porous concrete, but I suppose it is possible. The peeling that I see in your first image looks to me like someone painted the tiles to make them look pretty, but either did not clean/prep properly or used house paint, which will peel off rather quickly.


    As you look up in the attic, you will naturally see daylight, but as long as the tiles and flashings overlap correctly, they won't leak (at least under normal circumstances). Wind-driven rain is another thing though. If that house is in an area that gets moderate to strong winds, then that roof could well leak, even if there are no broken/displaced tiles. Your second, third, and fourth pics have a pretty bright spot which could indicate a broken/displaced tile. I also typically see a lot of debris in attics with this type of roof installation. Evidence of rodents as well. The attics tend to remain cooler in the summer though.


    To the best of my knowledge (presuming that this roof dates from those years that I mentioned) this is an approved installation and is not necessarily a defect. However, there is no secondary layer, so if a tile is displaced or broken (often happens), if debris blocks flashings (happens as well), or if they get moderate to strong wind, water will flow into the attic.

    Also, the lead flashings are typically aged and often are split/damaged. From the pics that you provided, I am guessing that you didn't walk the roof. If that is the case, at a minimum, I would recommend review of the roof and flashings by a licensed roofing contractor.

    When I inspect a house with this type of roof, I let them know as much as I can. Some inspectors in my area recommend replacement of the roof. I stop short of that, but I do let them know that this is an old roof installation, the type of roof is more prone to leaking due to the conditions that I mentioned, that only trained and insured people should walk on the roof (walking on tile can result in broken tiles), that this roof will require annual maintenance to check for damage and remove debris, and if they want more information, they should talk to a licensed roofing contractor (who will probably recommend a new roof).

    More and more, people are replacing these old roofs. I mean, they are 40-50 years old now.

    I hope this helps.

    Gunner - Thank you for the detailed reply, I live in So Cal. about 1 hour north of San Diege, within Riverside County.


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