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Thread: any help?

  1. #1
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
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    Default any help?

    no disrespect to the professionals...
    However, on occassion.... in small town USA.. where
    everyone grew up together.... there comes a code enforcer
    whose loyality lay with friends over public... what can be done?
    Here are the pics.. and when asked if an inspection would Please be done. We were told.. NO! One corner fell out last week.. all sides are falling.. corner stones are missing. the inside is just as bad. I have a daughter living here. Actually I am making her stay with me for now. All I want is to know the building is safe for her and my grandgirls.




    This one is the interior wall falling out from behind the siding on the back of the building.. it was sided to hide the holes.. we didnt know that when she moved in and signed a lease.
    Thanks for any input.. and please know I honestly believe that the majority of inspectors and codes enforcers are honest hard working men.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valrie Montgomery View Post
    we didnt know that when she moved in and signed a lease.

    Valrie,

    Check the lease, I am sure that it requires the landlord to provide a safe structure and environment for the occupants to life in.

    If not, and if the building department will do nothing, then you may end up having to contact an attorney to address the legal requirements of what should be in a lease to make it legal, many cities, counties, states have landlord laws which require certain things of the landlord, and I doubt those things are being provided.

    If nothing else, sue the landlord for failure to maintain a safe and habitable structure, by the time they try to prove that, based on those photos, they will be giving your daughter much more than they bargained for, such as title to that house and everything else they own.

    But you will need to start with an attorney.

    I doubt that will 'fall down over night', but, from your photos, it looks like it 'has already begun falling down over time', and at some point the rest just comes with it - sometimes overnight.

    What part of PA are you in? There are some inspectors here in PA who may be able to help with information.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    Thank you for the reply.
    We are in Montoursville.

    The landlord is really nice. He inhereted the building downtown, after his father passed.
    Yes, there was damage showing before. But, over this past winter.. the ice we had , that stayed for a long time.. seemed to contribute to the problem.

    Now its to the point where the bathroom shows the biggest shift. Sit on the toilet and lean into the wall. And the floor has dropped more then 4 inches in the center. She is on second floor.

    The lease is the standard month to month. You can buy at any old five and dime..

    If the property is not livable.. then I need to know so I can attempt to get her into housing. Last thing I need is for her to live with me.

    Thanks
    Valrie


  4. #4
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    Default Re: any help?

    I guess I don't understand your dilemma. If you are on a month to month lease then you are free to leave, no harm no foul.
    What are you wanting?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  5. #5
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    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valrie Montgomery View Post
    Now its to the point where the bathroom shows the biggest shift. Sit on the toilet and lean into the wall. And the floor has dropped more then 4 inches in the center. She is on second floor.

    The lease is the standard month to month. You can buy at any old five and dime..
    That 4" drop of the floor in the center is VERY disconcerting ...

    I would use that as a place to store your daughter's stuff until she finds another place to live (but not to live there), and when the monthly lease runs out (which is every month) I would have her move and hopefully her stuff is still accessible.

    If you were the owner, or a potential buyer, or you had a one year lease, I would recommend a structural engineer, but ... with a month to month lease the easy answer is "just move".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    She can move alright... she already paid this months so she lost that money. She lost her job in this economy... Her unemplyment isnt much. She will have to go into housing.... The waiting list is long. however, if there is proof her building is not fit to reside in. Then she is moved to the top of the list.
    If she cant return to her apartment.. she has to go into something she can afford.
    I just want to know what to do. Where to turn for answers and help getting them. Either the property is condemable and unsafe or it isnt.
    One way or the other she needs her own roof over her head.
    Grown kids moving home just doesn't work. At least not after a few weeks.
    I hope I explained that well enough.
    I appreciate all the answers and kindness...
    Thanks


  7. #7
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    Default Re: any help?

    Being as the building department is not much help (you said they won't do anything) I would go to the Fire Marshall and ask for a fire inspection (it is, after all, "rental property") and see what they say, then go to the unsafe structures board with the Fire Marshall's comments, which (I would hope from the photos) would be in your favor.

    Once the Fire Marshall deems it unsafe or some variation thereof, the unsafe structures board, and the building department, will almost have to step up to the plate, if not, there is the news paper, TV station (if you have one), the local health department, the state heath department, TV station at next larger town nearby, state landlord law, there are a lot of things which you could start going after for support and back up - once you get one or two, such as the Fire Marshall, not many people are going to buck that trend ... they will want to be jumping on the bandwagon "for the good of our citizenry" ... and their political butts.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: any help?

    Montoursville is unfortunately a 3 hour drive for me one way. However, I think based on the pictures you posted and what you already know, having a home inspector look at the property would be redundant as the house definintely appears to have serious problems. The course of action Jerry described would be best. We as home inspectors have no ability to enforce laws or make anybody do anything regardless of what we find. Going straight to the people who can make something happen for the good of public safety would be best.

    I'm guessing those railroad track/I beams in the ground at the corner of the house are supposed to protect the house against damage from cars.


  9. #9
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    Thank you Jerry
    That is the advice I was looking for!
    Now I know the different avenues at our disposal.
    I never thought of them.
    But, why would I? I'm just a Mom.

    Nick, Its either to prevent cars from hitting the corners.. or
    to help hold the corners together. LOL

    Happy Easter to all of you.

    I will let you know how it turns out.

    I have other pics of the property if you would like to view them.
    They are on myspace... here is the link.
    Valrie (valrie montgomery) | MySpace.com

    God Bless
    Valrie Montgomery
    "grannyoftomany"


  10. #10
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    Default Re: any help?

    Valrie,

    We just recently went through a similar experience with one of our daughters. When she and my wife found the apartment a couple of years ago they got over anxious and signed the lease without really looking at what they were getting into or waiting for me to get involved. The landlord was not maintenance minded nor interested in any significant investment in the building's upkeep. Last December the flat roof began to leak - badly. We were able to get her moved into another place within a week.

    The next time your daughter looks for a place to live leave the emotions at home - they always trip people up and monkey with one's common sense. It's an exceptionally common tendency of almost all people looking for a new place to live.

    This is really pretty easy. Just take some time to give the new place a good looking over on the outside. Is the landscaping clean? Is the siding in good condition and the woodwork painted. How about the gutters on the roof - are they secured or falling off. Are railings at stairs sound? All of this will tell you volumes about the landlord or management company and how well they take care of their property. If the outside is in poor condition then it may not be worth the time to even look inside.

    Look at your current situation as learning experience. That building has plenty of trouble and probably not worth the necessary repairs - maintenance was just let go too long.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  11. #11
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    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    That building has plenty of trouble and probably not worth the necessary repairs - maintenance was just let go too long.
    Sometimes, the best thing which can be said about a structure (and I have said it to my clients and put it in my reports when that was the best positive advice I could give them) is to donate the structure to the local fire department for them to use as a practice burn. All fire departments can always use hands on training when they know there are no persons in the structure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Mike Truss Guy's Avatar
    Mike Truss Guy Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valrie Montgomery View Post
    no disrespect to the professionals...
    However, on occassion.... in small town USA.. where
    everyone grew up together.... there comes a code enforcer
    whose loyality lay with friends over public... what can be done?
    Here are the pics.. and when asked if an inspection would Please be done. We were told.. NO! One corner fell out last week.. all sides are falling.. corner stones are missing. the inside is just as bad. I have a daughter living here. Actually I am making her stay with me for now. All I want is to know the building is safe for her and my grandgirls.
    Ugly does not always mean unsafe. This looks like a maintenance issue with a brick veneer. Chances are under that outer layer of bricks the structure is sound. It needs some mortar for sure though. Considering the age of this structure and how long it has stood, I doubt seriously that it will collapse in your lifetime. They probably should jack and shore up the foundation, too.

    Also that stack of bricks on the ground looks like somebody is aware of the problem and is working on it?

    Also, it's quite possible that you talked to the wrong person at the "building department"? Maybe try talking to the mayor instead...or at least their supervisor.

    Last edited by Mike Truss Guy; 04-13-2009 at 09:14 PM.

  13. #13
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    Cool Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That 4" drop of the floor in the center is VERY disconcerting ...

    I would use that as a place to store your daughter's stuff until she finds another place to live (but not to live there), and when the monthly lease runs out (which is every month) I would have her move and hopefully her stuff is still accessible.

    If you were the owner, or a potential buyer, or you had a one year lease, I would recommend a structural engineer, but ... with a month to month lease the easy answer is "just move".
    I once stayed in a 4 story hotel in old Quebec City which had what looked like almost a foot of height difference from one end of the room to the other. The doorways were not square - once side was about 2" higher than the other. This brick building has stood for about 250 years. Another example: The house I lived in in my bedroom had at least a 4" difference from one side to the other. If you dropped a golf ball it would roll to the other end of the room. It had an old granite foundation that settled over the 150 years it was built. It's still standing and I expect it to stand for another 100 years.


  14. #14
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: any help?

    OK, here is my .15 worth

    Your daughter has a place to stay to allow for this living environment dillema and her economic situation............

    With you. It won't be for long or at least till she pics up a job to get by.

    Why on earth would one want there daughter to go and get stsate funded housing when there is no need at this time.

    What ever happened to families helping each other out when needed and taking responsability for ones own actions and doing everything they can to get out of the situation they are in and come to some kind of resolve.

    Life isn't always a bed of roses. Life is sometimes a bit uncomfortable. Life is not always perfect.

    Sometimes on a temporary basis both family members involved need to suck it up and make the best of it until better times come. Why anyone would run to the state (which is really the tax payers) for housing assistance when they do not need it and the family can tuff it through is exactly what happened in this country when welfare was enacted. It became a 40 year nightmare that would not stop.

    Folks on assistants like the woman with six kids on public assistants and seems to have enough money to have eggs implanted in her on that assistance only to come out with what....8 more kids to be on state assistants.

    As for grown kids moving in does not work after a few weeks............................................. Well shoot............................................. .....Dump your problems with getting along on the tax payers......................That will solve the problems in America


  15. #15
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    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Truss Guy View Post
    Chances are under that outer layer of bricks the structure is sound.
    I disagree because looking at those photos shows a structure sagging behind the brick veneer.

    Also that stack of bricks on the ground looks like somebody is aware of the problem and is working on it?
    I'm thinking that the pile of bricks is some of what fell and where moved aside so the drive could be used to some extent.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    Jerry and Mike
    That section fell on the alley more than a week ago.
    I went there as they were shoveling out the dust that was once brick.
    Behind it was a hole looking in the basement. The corner post and the 1x6 that was nailed to it... they were missing about a foot of wood from the basement up.. it was gone.. dust like the brick.
    They are replacing those bricks.. in hopes that is all they need to do.
    If that makes that place safe... so be it. I'm no expert.
    On the myspace link i posted are pics of indoor things that concern me. Like a shifting bathroom... and a shower that sits on the steps that are out in the hall.. or how the lights go dim then bright.. but I think.. maybe that is just a local surge. After all the airport is outback.
    But this past winter we had ice that laid for weeks and weeks on buildings and in driveways... I wonder if that weight caused the building to twist some. I watched all winter as the cracks got bigger and the brick begin to twist and fall.
    I have her here with me for now. I wont let her get hurt .. I couldnt live with myself..
    So I am destine to help her get answers and a new place that is safe.
    I wrote down the list of things to watch for to see if maintentence is kept up.
    now as for ....

    Ted Menelly
    Castle Home Inspection Services ,
    First no member in my family is on welfare
    We are hard working.... its not our fault that businesses are closing their doors.
    My daughters recieves Unemplyoment.. which is an insurance... not welfare.
    As for housing.. there are many private owned apartment complexes that go by an income scale.
    They are the ones she is appling too. Not the projects.
    And... she can not live here for 2 reasons.
    1. I do have a lease.. this home is for a one family unit.
    2. Her daughters live with me. I have raised them since infancy.
    It would not be good for any of us to deal with each other on a 24/7 bases.
    Not that I need to explain this to you.
    I came from a large family... we take care of our own.
    But we also know the importance of making sure the young remember that they have to learn to stand tall all by theirselves.
    As for taxpayers... my husband is a member of 520 plumbers and pipefitters... he earns plenty.. and we pay in plenty.
    Dont judge me... dont judge us.
    I am asking for advice
    My daughter isnt the only person living in that building.
    There is also an older woman with no family to speak of. If there isnt help... she may end up on the streets.
    So Here... have 13 cents back... 15 was too much.
    Thanks for your opinion.... I appreciate you taking time out of your busy day to assist me and mine.


    *************************************
    Thanks guys Your advice is invaluable. I especially want to thank Jerry who has been there with support and friendly advice this entire time.
    Thanks...

    Gratefully
    Valrie


  17. #17
    Mike Truss Guy's Avatar
    Mike Truss Guy Guest

    Question Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I disagree because looking at those photos shows a structure sagging behind the brick veneer.



    I'm thinking that the pile of bricks is some of what fell and where moved aside so the drive could be used to some extent.
    I'm not saying you are wrong. It's hard to tell from the photos, but it clearly is in need of some serious maintenance. I have to wonder however why these issues were not noticed before she moved into the place. If you move into an 80 year old house, you are living in a house that was built before building codes. Some people see old houses as having character, but I agree that falling bricks is a safety issue that must be fixed. An uneven foundation however is not always a major structural issue - there are companies that specialize in jacking old foundations.

    All I got from the Myspace photos however was that the metal chimney needs to be re-grouted and the house is not level.

    I would also ask this...is the house permitted to have a multi-family rental? If not then it would need to meet some sort of inspection before it gets rented unless it is somehow grandfathered.


  18. #18
    Mike Truss Guy's Avatar
    Mike Truss Guy Guest

    Thumbs up Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valrie Montgomery View Post
    Jerry and Mike
    That section fell on the alley more than a week ago.
    I went there as they were shoveling out the dust that was once brick.
    Behind it was a hole looking in the basement. The corner post and the 1x6 that was nailed to it... they were missing about a foot of wood from the basement up.. it was gone.. dust like the brick.
    They are replacing those bricks.. in hopes that is all they need to do.
    If that makes that place safe... so be it. I'm no expert.
    Yes, they need to replace deteriorating bricks for sure.

    On the myspace link i posted are pics of indoor things that concern me. Like a shifting bathroom... and a shower that sits on the steps that are out in the hall...
    Do you have a problem with showering in the hall? just kidding.

    or how the lights go dim then bright.. but I think.. maybe that is just a local surge. After all the airport is outback.
    Chances are the wiring is as old as the bricks.

    But this past winter we had ice that laid for weeks and weeks on buildings and in driveways... I wonder if that weight caused the building to twist some. I watched all winter as the cracks got bigger and the brick begin to twist and fall.
    A brick house weighs allot. Ice probably has nithign to do with it. My guess is the foundation is just sinking over the decades and is just settling unevenly. There could also have been a plumbing leak underground that washed away part of the soil. You have to remember a house this old was probably build by placing heavy stones on the uncompressed soil. Today they compact the soil and replace much of it with a uniform gravel. It might be that they need to jack up the entire house off the old foundation and pour a new concrete one with rebar. Foundations made from granite blocks are going to settle unevenly. That's probably why the walls are cracking.

    I have her here with me for now. I wont let her get hurt .. I couldnt live with myself..
    So I am destine to help her get answers and a new place that is safe.
    I wrote down the list of things to watch for to see if maintentence is kept up.
    now as for ....

    Ted Menelly
    Castle Home Inspection Services ,
    First no member in my family is on welfare
    We are hard working.... its not our fault that businesses are closing their doors.
    My daughters recieves Unemplyoment.. which is an insurance... not welfare.
    As for housing.. there are many private owned apartment complexes that go by an income scale.
    They are the ones she is appling too. Not the projects.
    And... she can not live here for 2 reasons.
    1. I do have a lease.. this home is for a one family unit.
    2. Her daughters live with me. I have raised them since infancy.
    It would not be good for any of us to deal with each other on a 24/7 bases.
    Not that I need to explain this to you.
    I came from a large family... we take care of our own.
    But we also know the importance of making sure the young remember that they have to learn to stand tall all by theirselves.
    As for taxpayers... my husband is a member of 520 plumbers and pipefitters... he earns plenty.. and we pay in plenty.
    Dont judge me... dont judge us.
    None of that is anybody's business.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: any help?

    I'd bet my inspection fee that the 4" drop on the outside wall above the basement window is the result of a deteriorated/sagging wooden window lintel in the basement. That window is very close to grade level which will place the lintel close to grade level too. Moisture wicking up through the wall over the years likely ate away at the ends of the lintel and caused everything above it to drop. The grading is not helping either but I see a lot of old houses and the location of the basement level windows is often problematic. Equally problematic is the location of the basement ceiling joists in relation to the ground. Joists pocketed into the foundation walls less than a foot above the exterior grade level will have moisture rot issues on time.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: any help?

    One thing to keep in mind: if the building is in fact unsafe, and the landlord is unwilling or unable to immediately resolve the problems, the building may be posted as unfit for habitation, and the occupants may have to leave anyway.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  21. #21
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    You have ligit questions about the early signs of damage.
    She was so excited about getting her first place by herself..
    She rented it without having anyone with some experience check it
    over for her.
    She thought she could handle the little problems. And that being the place was a hotel way back in the 1800's intregued her.
    Being in center town next to the stores also was a plus..
    She should have been more careful and gotten some advice before signing a lease and moving in.
    She is living.. and learning...
    Thankfully! lol :}

    I do understand what you mean about the grading of the ground. Over time an alley was put in so there are layers of tar and asphalt that raised the earth around the building. Also, the river is near by and I know that the building has been hit by many a floods over the centuries. Then there are termites and moisture damage.. and just plain old simple wood rot. After all nothing last forever.
    I thought the same as Nick. I recently learned that the cellar window that is sagging so badly above it.. use to be the coal shoot. When they closed that off they should have filled in the hole there. Maybe that would have prevented some of the sagging.

    The brick is three layers thick.. and they are turning to dust. Again, nothing last forever. I feel bad for the landlord actually. He is gonna have his hands full real fast. See, he inherested most of the building on that block and they all are in major problems. He's a nice guy. But, yet it is his responsiblity to maintain and upkeep.

    We are just about packed up. She wont sleep there again.
    She cracked me up. She removed the tape and plastic covering her windows... and it had pulled some paint. Do you know, that she is so set on doing things in a responsible manner.. she went out and bought paint and repainted the window frames. Too funny. Too sad.. yet glad to see.

    Thanks guys


  22. #22
    Mike Truss Guy's Avatar
    Mike Truss Guy Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    I have some more bad news or more accurately speculation...In a house that old there is probably also lead, rodent, asbestos, and mold issues.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Truss Guy View Post
    I'm not saying you are wrong. It's hard to tell from the photos, but it clearly is in need of some serious maintenance.

    Mike,

    I'm saying that from the photos, it appears 'well beyond being maintenance', regardless how serious the maintenance might have been which you had in mind.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
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    Default Re: any help?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valrie Montgomery View Post
    The brick is three layers thick.. and they are turning to dust.

    Valrie,

    "The brick is three layers thick", that indicates a multi-wythe wall, which is the structural wall, not brick veneer covering a frame structure, that indicates it is worse than I even thought it was ...

    That means (if it is an actual brick structure) that the structure itself is failing (but I think I already said that in other posts above, only now I am saying if for a different reason).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #25
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    surprise surprise I went by yesterday and the lanlord has a group of young guys fixing the brick.. I spoke to one of them and they said they are doing all the brick around the entire structure. He said they already raised the cellar beams and replaced a few "joyces" and they are gonna repair the foundation wall where they are crumbling.
    I asked if they were also fixing the fallen floor up on second floor and he didnt know about that but said they would.
    They claim the building is safe to live in.... and that the building inspectors have not been by. They got a permit to repair the building and it wont be checked until they are completed.

    You all know more then I do about this... I am just glad to hear that money is being put into the place.
    Even through these guys are young.. I'm hoping they have experience. I saw no signs.. and no info on any of the trucks. But around here that doesnt mean anything.

    My daughter said if the landlord really fixes it up and its safe that she wants to stay there. I think she is nuts. But what the heck.. shes 32 and able to make her own decisions.. who am I. I'm just Mom with an opinion.

    I'll let you know how it works out.
    she is still having the fire marshall come around and check the wiring and that gas tubing that runs around the walls into the livingroom and bedroom.


  26. #26
    Valrie Montgomery's Avatar
    Valrie Montgomery Guest

    Default Re: any help?

    Mike
    No rodents that we ever seen.. not even bugs.
    No mold in or around the visable parts of her apartment.
    The walls are all recently painted in the last year. So if there is lead its under that paint... and anything else.. well anything is possible.
    This area is also very high for radon.

    Take care
    Val


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