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  1. #1
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    Default Cut joist repairs?

    I wonder when architects, builders, tub makers and plumbers will finally get this right?

    If the bathroom wall is located over a floor joist, and the floor joists are on 16" centres, the middle of the average tub will land directly over the next joist.

    Does anyone have pics of quality repairs to butchered I-joists like this one?

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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    I don't see any way that PB (or any type of plastic piping) can be supported at all close to what is required ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post

    I wonder

    Does anyone have pics of quality repairs to butchered I-joists like this one?
    .
    ....
    .

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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    John,

    Normally, unless there is an unusual load on the joist, a single joist can be headered across without needing to double up the supporting joist. The builder needs to know this and plan for the tub placement before hand though. Also, most I joist manufacturers allow a single joist to be moved a few inches one way or another to avoid plumbing. Again, dependent on any special load conditions.

    As far as tub drain placement, I think the drain needs to be in the center to drain properly. The only other option is a narrower or wider tub.

    BTW isn't that ABS drain pipe? Is this a mobile home or residential structure?

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    If this is a repair for your own home then I would suggest contacting the supplier of the joist. It is doubtful that they have an approved repair detail prepared for that situation but they may certainly be able to put you on the right track.

    If itís something that you are inspecting for a customer then get an engineer. Thatís what I do when I come across that situation as a building inspector. The design of that joist certainly did not allow for that scenario, its strength is developed in part by the shape of the joist and it should remain in its original state.

    Having said that, I have seen various repair details created by engineers in the past. More often it will comprise of complete reinforcement on both sides with 3/4" plywood projecting at least 3' to 4' beyond each face of the alteration fastened securely and with a subfloor adhesive. Further to this additional strapping/furring attached to the bottom web of that joist then to adjacent joist will also help to transfer load.

    The most important thing to remember in my opinion is that no matter which repair is chosen, ensure it is done properly as this will be one of the most heavily loaded areas of the home. I.e. Person + tub + water. It is certainly better to over do it in this situation.

    Aaron


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Of course an engineers spec. would be the first route, or another I joist placed along side if possible. We did one that had 2 pieces 3/4" plywood on both sides in the web cut 1/8" less than the web depth then blocked out with dimenesional lumber till it cleard the plumbing. The plywood and lumber extended 3 feet in each direction and was thru bolted with (5) 1/2" bolts on each side. The sag was removed before the work was done and it didn't move once the temporary support was removed. But sorry, don't have any pics.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Where is the p-trap, vent, and overflow if this is a tub (don't think so). Looks like a neo-angle shower. If this is a tub doubt the floor could support weight in the first place.

    No excuse for the excessive hacking of the subfloor either - this is doesn't look the least bit original more like a diy remodel.

    Hundreds of different shower/tub models are out there, many different dimmentions, and drain orientations are readily available - just not necessarily stocked at the local big box.

    What up with unsecured cable laying on the HVAC trunk? What's on the other side of the ABS offsets - conduit laying on the trunk?

    The manufactured joist cannot be repaired, neither can the butchering of the subfloor without removing the hack DIY remodel. Extensive re-framing and subfloor replacement necessary, from the looks of things may be quite a task configuring alternate support while the work is being done - including removing the trunk(s), etc. It is possible to frame openings in floors, this is not how it is done.

    If I had to guess, I suspect someone decided to plunk this down where a toilet once was; or converted a laundry area with floor drain to expand a half-bathroom, either way its very wrong. Platform floor so pre-existance of partion wall no excuse. Water stains on the bottom flange. IIRC ABS cement in Canada is color coded YELLOW.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-08-2010 at 08:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    BTW isn't that ABS drain pipe? Is this a mobile home or residential structure?
    It's a 15 yr old residence. Is there a problem with ABS? I know this drain was leaking and I called for a repair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Hayward View Post
    If this is a repair for your own home then I would suggest contacting the supplier of the joist. It is doubtful that they have an approved repair detail prepared for that situation but they may certainly be able to put you on the right track.
    I have searched the installation pdf but no luck so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Hayward View Post
    If it’s something that you are inspecting for a customer then get an engineer. That’s what I do when I come across that situation as a building inspector.
    Having said that, I have seen various repair details created by engineers in the past. More often it will comprise of complete reinforcement on both sides with 3/4" plywood projecting at least 3' to 4' beyond each face of the alteration fastened securely and with a subfloor adhesive. Further to this additional strapping/furring attached to the bottom web of that joist then to adjacent joist will also help to transfer load.
    The most important thing to remember in my opinion is that no matter which repair is chosen, ensure it is done properly as this will be one of the most heavily loaded areas of the home. I.e. Person + tub + water. It is certainly better to over do it in this situation.
    Aaron
    Thanks, Aaron. Thanks, Phil. Plywood reinforcement is probably possible. Has anyone seen a steel plate bolted to the joist?

    HG, the picture is of a shower base, although I used the general term 'tub' in my opening remark, sorry. There are some loose polybutylene plumbing pipes in there, and the drain is leaking, too. I don't know when the shower was installed. The room has always been an ensuite bathroom, of that I'm sure by the layout of this 1995 house.

    I see what you mean about the glue. Other connections were properly glued with the right stuff. This drain was installed with minimal glue and we can't see the colour. Whatever, it was leaking and needs repair.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 03-08-2010 at 12:01 PM. Reason: relooked the pics

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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Thanks AD, both of those links are helpful, and I will pass this on. Now I know I wasn't dreaming.

    This quote from the joist manufacturer LP site says it all -"One final note: If you spend an ounce of prevention, you gain a pound of cure. Spending a few minutes with the framer, electrician, plumber and HVAC contractors prior to the beginning of construction will help eliminate the need for repairs. Providing copies of LPís Installation Instructions for all subcontractors is the easiest way to reduce the amount of repairs".


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Products referenced by AD are not possible to use to repair the I-joist pictured. First one needs only review the FLANGE repair documentation to know that even the supplier of these materials has said so regarding the degree of damage (size of area) to both the upper flange and web.

    Secondly, this Performance Rated I-joist has been under load in this damaged conditon and sujected to water damage and further damage & deterioration beyond the removed web & flange - as pictured.

    No part of the remaining damaged I-joist can be relied upon and would not be by a qualified responsible party.

    Re-framing the area is required. Trimmers, squash, fillers, etc. and replacement, support, and repair of the significant voids/destruction to the subfloor are required to at a minimum support the shower area and bathroom. Damage and destruction to the I-joist and subfloor has placed additional stresses on the remainder of the area.

    There is no law prohibiting the sale of such items - the use of them, especially in a circumstance such as this one, is what can be (Canada) in some cases (extreme) not only civil liability but criminal.

    Note their own reporting shows a legacy approval from 97 for only limited application with sawn lumber.

    There are a host of solutions possible to remediate the damages; however, repairing the butchered, under load, water damaged Performance Rated I-joist with huge void in web and a tremendous amount of the upper flange having been removed mid span at a critical point, and further deterioration, as shown in the photos provided is NOT one of them.

    Any attempt at "repairing" and/or "re-using" the I-joist short of having an engineer's plans, drawings, on-site inspection and approval documentation (signed/sealed/stamped), would be extremely UNWISE.

    I do not find it plausible that this PRI and Subfloor damage, incorrect shower drain plumbing or present shower pan in present location could possibly be original.

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    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-09-2010 at 09:53 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Products referenced by AD are not possible to use to repair the I-joist pictured.
    HG: Before you proceed to gnaw on my tires, note that I never stated that the products could be used to repair the OP's I-joists, or any I-joists, for that matter. I simply posted the link to the site for informational purposes.

    It would not hurt you one bit to begin posting more information and less flack aimed at others trying to do just that.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    HG: Before you proceed to gnaw on my tires, note that I never stated that the products could be used to repair the OP's I-joists, or any I-joists, for that matter. I simply posted the link to the site for informational purposes.

    It would not hurt you one bit to begin posting more information and less flack aimed at others trying to do just that.
    I had posted the CORRECT information. Your product suggestion and posts subsequent were and are NOT APPLICABLE to the OP situation - evidenced by the PHOTOS themselves and the photographed evidence of further deterioration due to load and water exposure damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Where is the p-trap, vent, and overflow if this is a tub (don't think so). Looks like a neo-angle shower. If this is a tub doubt the floor could support weight in the first place.

    No excuse for the excessive hacking of the subfloor either - this is doesn't look the least bit original more like a diy remodel.

    Hundreds of different shower/tub models are out there, many different dimmentions, and drain orientations are readily available - just not necessarily stocked at the local big box.

    What up with unsecured cable laying on the HVAC trunk? What's on the other side of the ABS offsets - conduit laying on the trunk?

    The manufactured joist cannot be repaired, neither can the butchering of the subfloor without removing the hack DIY remodel. Extensive re-framing and subfloor replacement necessary, from the looks of things may be quite a task configuring alternate support while the work is being done - including removing the trunk(s), etc. It is possible to frame openings in floors, this is not how it is done.

    If I had to guess, I suspect someone decided to plunk this down where a toilet once was; or converted a laundry area with floor drain to expand a half-bathroom, either way its very wrong. Platform floor so pre-existance of partion wall no excuse. Water stains on the bottom flange. IIRC ABS cement in Canada is color coded YELLOW.
    Others suggested that fillers and web stiffeners sans (that means "without") COMPANION NEW PRI remediation of subfloor, and transfero of load could some how remediate the voids in web and missing upper flange - JK seemed to think this was somehow possible or endorsed - it is not. JKs subsequent post seemed to indicate that an UNENGINEERED/unapproved design solution (adhering plywood or metal to the web, adding trimmers/headers or dimmensional lumber to the floor system) without review might be a viable option (it is NOT). It was at that point you INJECTED with "your" "repair/reinforcement" product "suggestion".

    To wit I posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Products referenced by AD are not possible to use to repair the I-joist pictured. First one needs only review the FLANGE repair documentation to know that even the supplier of these materials has said so regarding the degree of damage (size of area) to both the upper flange and web.

    Secondly, this Performance Rated I-joist has been under load in this damaged conditon and sujected to water damage and further damage & deterioration beyond the removed web & flange - as pictured.

    No part of the remaining damaged I-joist can be relied upon and would not be by a qualified responsible party.

    Re-framing the area is required. Trimmers, squash, fillers, etc. and replacement, support, and repair of the significant voids/destruction to the subfloor are required to at a minimum support the shower area and bathroom. Damage and destruction to the I-joist and subfloor has placed additional stresses on the remainder of the area.

    There is no law prohibiting the sale of such items - the use of them, especially in a circumstance such as this one, is what can be (Canada) in some cases (extreme) not only civil liability but criminal.

    Note their own reporting shows a legacy approval from 97 for only limited application with sawn lumber.

    There are a host of solutions possible to remediate the damages; however, repairing the butchered, under load, water damaged Performance Rated I-joist with huge void in web and a tremendous amount of the upper flange having been removed mid span at a critical point, and further deterioration, as shown in the photos provided is NOT one of them.

    Any attempt at "repairing" and/or "re-using" the I-joist short of having an engineer's plans, drawings, on-site inspection and approval documentation (signed/sealed/stamped), would be extremely UNWISE.

    I do not find it plausible that this PRI and Subfloor damage, incorrect shower drain plumbing or present shower pan in present location could possibly be original.
    It wasn't and isn't always all about you or your wounded feelings AD, tough up.

    The cut/hacked/butchered, stressed as such under load and exposed to and showing visable signs of water/moisture exposure post-damage, PRI cannot be repaired : that is the answer to the original question and title of the TOPIC THREAD, the information I have PROVIDED now three times. The products of your google search are not on topic nor a repair/remediation solution to the OP.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    HG: No wounded feelings here.

    Learn to actually read my posts, instead of reading what you want to read, and you will have an easier time of it. But then, an old masochist like you may not have "easier time" in your sights.

    Due to your advanced age and obvious willingness to chew the Goodriches off anything rolling, I'll let your incessant blather slide. I'm simply not in the mood to mince words with you at the moment.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 03-10-2010 at 04:01 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I wonder when architects, builders, tub makers and plumbers will finally get this right?
    The only real person to blame is the builder. Wood-I joists can be moved 3 inches in either direction for reasons like the tub. Poor planning and poor supervision by the builder resulted in the above.

    Here's what Weyerhaeuser has put out for 'possible' repairs. Your condition is beyond what's in the guide.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Here is some handiwork by the HVAC and plumber.
    Sabre saws are dangerous if left in the hands of the untrained

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    The only real person to blame is the builder.


    Poor planning and poor supervision by the builder resulted in the above.
    Really?!
    I joist are designed and have a layout drawing just as trusses do, so couldn't we put some blame on on the engineer?

    If the framers didn't install the I joist as layed out and the misplaced joist was in the way of the drain, no blame for him either?

    While some builders could care less about quality, most do care and try to hire good subs, and follow good building practices. It is impossible for a builder to check every joist and stud to see that it was nailed properly, check the nail pattern on every piece of sheathing, etc...

    While there is no doubt the builder is 100% liable for this and any other defect with the house, to say that he is the only person to blame is ridiculous!

    How about the dumb-ass that mutilated the I joist, cant we blame him just a little.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    While there is no doubt the builder is 100% liable for this and any other defect with the house, to say that he is the only person to blame is ridiculous!

    How about the dumb-ass that mutilated the I joist, cant we blame him just a little.

    In my book the jerk who cut that out was "to blame".

    As to who "is responsible" can be a complex argument we know nothing about. Such as the plumber calls the builder and tells the builder the I-joist is in the way, and the builder tells the plumber 'do what you have to do, I will make so-and-so pay to correct it', so the plumber is "to blame" for cutting it out, but the builder "is responsible" for it (in this example). No suppose the plumber does not bother to call the builder, the plumber is "to blame" AND "is responsible" too.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    One thing my dad taught me growing up in building, "Even if we don't drive every nail in this house, we are responsible for every nail driven" insert whatever for the nail, it's the builders responsibility to hold the subs accountable & make sure everything is right for the largest investment most people are going to make.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Goad View Post
    One thing my dad taught me growing up in building, "Even if we don't drive every nail in this house, we are responsible for every nail driven" insert whatever for the nail, it's the builders responsibility to hold the subs accountable & make sure everything is right for the largest investment most people are going to make.
    Right. This may have been the case if the homeowner had been aware of the damage and reported it to the builder on time. We can't be sure when the damage was done, though.

    HG, to ease your mind, we saw right away that those metal patches would be inadequate in this case.
    The LP pdf shows what seems to me a plausible repair, Detail "D", cut away the bad section and install headers with hangers to the adjoining trusses?
    Of course it's not up to me and I will let the SE and builder decide on an appropriate repair.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  22. #22
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cut joist repairs?

    HG, to ease your mind, we saw right away that those metal patches would be inadequate in this case.

    JK: It's nice to see that he hasn't completely flamboozled the forum . . .


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