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  1. #1
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    Default Vertical sill plate

    Something new today, vertical sill plate. What would you call out on this besides unconventional framing techniques. Home constructed in 1964.

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  2. #2
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Quote Originally Posted by sidney alstad View Post
    What would you call out on this besides unconventional framing techniques.
    Lack of fasteners.

    Question, why are the 2x8's/2x10's stacked, is there a step at that location in the house?


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    Lack of fasteners.

    Question, why are the 2x8's/2x10's stacked, is there a step at that location in the house?
    I would call them sistered due to prior damage (rot). This was done 5 years ago when seller purchased this home.

    Sid


  4. #4
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Quote Originally Posted by sidney alstad View Post
    I would call them sistered......


    So would I.

    I was asking about the sills/ledgers/rim joist (whatever you want to call them) that are stacked, as in on top of each other, running perpendicular to the joist. I know this does not pertain to your original question, but I was curious.


  5. #5
    Joseph Stevens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Just curious, how did you word something like this in your report?


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    So would I.

    I was asking about the sills/ledgers/rim joist (whatever you want to call them) that are stacked, as in on top of each other, running perpendicular to the joist. I know this does not pertain to your original question, but I was curious.
    Actually that was my original question. I was wondering the same thing. I had never seen vertical sills and thus I will very likely call it unconventional framing technique's observed in crawlspace with further investigation by a lic. g.c.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Quote Originally Posted by James Risley View Post
    Are the stacked rim joist (or any part of them) below grade? Perhaps they were stacked to increase open height of crawl space in lew of digging out crawl space. Sloppy job of replacing floor joists.
    or heard on the original job site after sub floor installed... "What did you say? The builder has this puppy sold if we can get six to eight more inches of crawl space. get the jacks out we can double the rim joist."
    JR
    At one time the rear of the home may have been below grade, thus the need for the vertical installation. I inquired if the contractors had permits issued, and the seller stated that these were not contractors but rather handymen, and this was only 5 years ago. Makes you wonder what the vinyl siding is covering.


  8. #8
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Quote Originally Posted by James Risley View Post
    Perhaps they were stacked to increase open height of crawl space in lew of digging out crawl space.

    This is along the line of my thinking because the damage to the joist appears to be worse than the subfloor which would rule out a leak.

    Sloppy job of replacing floor joists.
    Agreed, perhaps understated.


  9. #9
    Mitchell Toelle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Sidney,

    Along with a potential rolling concern with the vertical members there is no anchored sill plate underneath. If they can be adequately anchored using another method such as straps, brackets, side anchors, epoxied bolts, etc...there may be hope without having to move or remove them. Here's the thing, a GC (as someone posted earlier) is not going to be able to "engineer" a fix for this. A structural Engineer will have to do it. Don't be afraid to say so in your Report. Instead, be afraid of NOT saying it in your Report.

    Not sure if you have any additional seismic requirements for your area or not, but what is there does not even meet minimum code requirements for anchoring.

    BTW....not sure if those members are treated or not (kinda look like they might be) but they do need to be.

    Good luck.

    Last edited by Mitchell Toelle; 08-27-2010 at 01:28 AM. Reason: missed one note

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Is the whole house this way? Was this an addition, maybe old porch stem wall?

    I would have to interpret the bottom 2X that is on edge as a shim and not a rim joist. I don't think this size shim has ever been allowed by code. I think 4" was allowed at one time and then was reduced to 2".

    Most of the older houses don't have a sill plate or anchors in this area. The requirement for anchors didn't come around until after Hugo in 1985 as I remember. The sill plate needs to be PT only if it is within 6" of grade by current code. (I think it's 6"?)

    As much as I hate to defer to an engineer, this is one that I would without hesitation.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Based on what I'm seeing in the photos I would have to say that this home was raised for who knows why.

    Right now the home does not have a sill plate or is the home secured to the foundation.

    I would simply report that you found some unconventional foundation work and that unconventional items tend to perform in unconventional ways! I would make the recommendation for a foundation contractor and or an engineer who specializes in residential foundations to design and make the needed corrections.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Poorly installed/applied Ledger Board(s) to foundation cripple wall

    First with diag sawn lumber with large gaps as sub-floor I would question the supposed 1964 original vintage if this home was part of a development.

    I presume orignal hardwood flooring above, or additional layer of plywood.

    Second I question determination as to what is and is not there, i.e. sill or base plate, and labeling of questionably attached and intermittant ledger board.

    Appears to be a sheathed (inside and likely outside) foundation cripple wall atop CMU (which would be likely 8"), may even be a ballooned-framed wall (but don't think so due to subfloor extending, appears platform framed above), with a questionably applied Ledger Board. "Base plate" of same (cripple or balloon wall) would be the "sill plate". When correctly installed, a Ledger Board commonly supports notched floor joists. The second photo none of the floor joists are notched or blocked, and in both photos the ledger board(s) are neither continuous, nor appear to be fastened to the interiorly sheathed structural wall (cripple or balloon which ever it may be).

    Both crib wall sheathing and questionably attached and non-continuous applied Ledger Board supporting the notched floor joists, in addition to the replacement (and questionably graded, measured, etc.) floor joists all appear to have moisture staining (concerns). I would be suspect as to grade of first pictured replacement floor joists. I see no grade stamp and signs indicating they may not be suitably selected.

    CMU foundation shows signs of moisture migration & effluoresc.

    It appears the factors contributing the the necessity of replacement were not addressed by the "handyman" repairs five years prior, and the "repair" work may not have been correctly executed.

    I would suspect when original siding or exterior finish was replaced or covered/skinned over with vinyl siding, flashing was damaged, or improperly altered and/replaced and damage or failure to attend to a proper drainage plane (i.e. no building paper, perhaps original finish was sheeted asphaltic, etc.). A photo of the immediate exterior would have been helpful.

    The source of the moisture could be from (immediately or far above, adjacent, and/or migrating from below.

    P.S. What is immediately above this area, a sliding glass door, picture or bay window, entry door? Is there an elevated surface immediately outside it, stoop, deck, patio, stair, etc.? What is the exterior grade/topography?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-27-2010 at 10:34 AM. Reason: post script question.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Looks like built up for Patio door,?/ But I don't see any nails or screws?? need more info. or pictures up top side.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Poorly installed/applied Ledger Board(s) to foundation cripple wall

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    First with diag sawn lumber with large gaps as sub-floor I would question the supposed 1964 original vintage if this home was part of a development.

    I presume orignal hardwood flooring above, or additional layer of plywood.

    Second I question determination as to what is and is not there, i.e. sill or base plate, and labeling of questionably attached and intermittant ledger board.

    Appears to be a sheathed (inside and likely outside) foundation cripple wall atop CMU (which would be likely 8"), may even be a ballooned-framed wall (but don't think so due to subfloor extending, appears platform framed above), with a questionably applied Ledger Board. "Base plate" of same (cripple or balloon wall) would be the "sill plate". When correctly installed, a Ledger Board commonly supports notched floor joists. The second photo none of the floor joists are notched or blocked, and in both photos the ledger board(s) are neither continuous, nor appear to be fastened to the interiorly sheathed structural wall (cripple or balloon which ever it may be).

    Both crib wall sheathing and questionably attached and non-continuous applied Ledger Board supporting the notched floor joists, in addition to the replacement (and questionably graded, measured, etc.) floor joists all appear to have moisture staining (concerns). I would be suspect as to grade of first pictured replacement floor joists. I see no grade stamp and signs indicating they may not be suitably selected.

    CMU foundation shows signs of moisture migration & effluoresc.

    It appears the factors contributing the the necessity of replacement were not addressed by the "handyman" repairs five years prior, and the "repair" work may not have been correctly executed.

    I would suspect when original siding or exterior finish was replaced or covered/skinned over with vinyl siding, flashing was damaged, or improperly altered and/replaced and damage or failure to attend to a proper drainage plane (i.e. no building paper, perhaps original finish was sheeted asphaltic, etc.). A photo of the immediate exterior would have been helpful.

    The source of the moisture could be from (immediately or far above, adjacent, and/or migrating from below.

    P.S. What is immediately above this area, a sliding glass door, picture or bay window, entry door? Is there an elevated surface immediately outside it, stoop, deck, patio, stair, etc.? What is the exterior grade/topography?
    I have attached pictures of the Jim Walter home. Picture 1 is the area where the prior photo's were taken, well before the front porch and the 2nd picture shows the rear with the improper slope of soil.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Vertical sill plate

    Additional pictures of the modular pre-fab confirm quite a bit regarding the "issues" not having been addressed for this ailing modular pre-fab.

    The applied stone veneer to the cripple wall, the unstabelized sloping grade allowed to migrate up to same, well overtop the cmu, the vinyl siding nearly burried backside, and the rear downspout emptying uphill.

    Would be very concerned similar uncorrected and unqualified work regarding the removed window, suspect tub or shower wall, stacked vinyl seams - probably one of those surrounds put in to hide/coverup mold/moisture/rot issues behind and below. The rust stains below stove pipe are worrisome.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-28-2010 at 06:38 AM.

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