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Thread: Poor Fraiming ?

  1. #1
    kev cornett's Avatar
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    Default Poor Fraiming ?

    I looked at this problem the homeowner brought to my attention.Should i have the structure taken down and re-done?The roof is completed , plumbing is done, at this point all roughed in , electrical is next.
    Im looking into floor joist and the block tilting issue for a fix.(any recomendations)
    There are other structual issues in the wall studs poor lumber twisted wall studs, bad header assembly but nialing being a big issue.The nailguns used on the 7/16's wall sheets penetrated more than half of the thickness of the sheething.The homeowner stated
    he had to redo the roof where no support was under sheething where the 2 roofs meet and renailed the entire roof because of inadequate nailing.
    Keep in mind this is new construction 16'x30' master bedroom,bath,sunroom.
    Also the homeowner had the foundation done by other source.They were 1/4" out of square on the 30' span .And the back left corner has a gradual fall out of level to the same corner 1 3/4 ".They used the lumber to correct the error but improperly notched the floor joists to the sillplate causing the stress issue.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Actual pictures would be better than drawings. Based on what you show, tear down would probably be the best recommendation. Unfortunately in these cases tear down isn't usually a financial option for many homeowners.
    A lot of what you show could be fixed by a competent carpentry crew. A few of the issues aren't reasonably fixable.
    The foundation wall being out of level can be dealt with. Being out of plumb or blocks not being set right is a deal breaker.
    - gaps under sill plates should be fully grouted
    - sill plate should be properly anchored to wall
    - ledger board should be anchored to wall, not nailed
    - notching the joists at the wall is unacceptable, no longer sufficient support, probably poorly cut making load bearing even worse
    - 'girders' are typically oversized from the joists they support. I would not consider a 2x8 supporting 2x8 joists a girder.
    - is this a DIY or is there an actual contractor
    - I looked at some houses in a suburban subdivision years ago around here. Builder was using 1/2 ply on roof, 7/16" on walls; Not what I would approve of on a house
    - General nailing can be dealt with. Joist hangers installed incorrectly?
    What happened here? The client went with the lowest bidder or just got a lousy crew?
    Your question is too easy to answer. However, answering it properly based on what is best for the client is a little more complicated.
    If the block wall and floor joists are suspect, and conditions remain in place. There will always be problems with the addition. Can the client afford to start over, or can the client afford NOT to start over.
    You can't tell your client what to do. You should however present all available options for them to make a decision that is best for their situation.

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  3. #3
    kev cornett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    this is an actuall Company who hired a sub . The Financing is being carried by the Comapany at present. The block foundation is not perfectly plum
    being aprox 3/32 out on the back wall , still within the v3 rule.
    I dont think being out of plum is an issue as for the tilting , Altho it should be perfectly plum by my standards.
    I think it all is a result of point load stress along with some oversized mortar joints by the block layer.But if the joists where properly carrying the load to the sill plate i dont think the tilt would have occured

    Last edited by kev cornett; 10-04-2010 at 01:01 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Pictures are worth a thousand words.

    But if this is presently under construction, call your local AHJ! They are the ones who can best give you the immediate answers that you want/need, and have the authority to do something about it.

    Egbert Jager
    Diamond Home Inspection
    http://www.diamondhomeinspection.ca

  5. #5
    mark tyson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kev cornett View Post
    this is an actuall Company who hired a sub . The Financing is being carried by the Comapany at present. The block foundation is not perfectly plum
    being aprox 3/32 out on the back wall , still within the v3 rule.
    I dont think being out of plum is an issue as for the tilting , Altho it should be perfectly plum by my standards.
    I think it all is a result of point load stress along with some oversized mortar joints by the block layer.But if the joists where properly carrying the load to the sill plate i dont think the tilt would have occured
    It looks like the low bidder got the job
    It is amazing that so many things have gone wrong on a 480 sq/ft addition.
    I don't think the tilt is the result of load stress in that if the wall framing is 2x4 there would 2" bearing on the joists.
    Rather due to all of the other poor workmanship defects that you are describing my guess is that some or all of the joists were cut long. Rather than going back to the saw table the "carpenter" got out the sledge hammer and drove it home. Because the band joist is nailed to the sill plate the bottom held causing the the unreinforced masonry to tilt


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    The homeowner placed shims under joists.The joist were nailed flush and level with the band and not cut to sill plate properly.The band sheathing poping loose poor nailing.Some of the worst carpentry ive seen in awhile

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    Last edited by kev cornett; 10-05-2010 at 05:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kev cornett View Post
    Some of the worst carpentry ive seen in awhile
    Just because two sticks are nailed together that doesn't necessarily qualify it as "carpentry."


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Heres some pics of the roof attachment the homeowner took and the repairs he made placing supports down the span for the sheething

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    Just because two sticks are nailed together that doesn't necessarily qualify it as "carpentry."
    yea i specified what it should have been .These clowns are just that.
    The homeowner has banned this crew from his property


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Has the homeowner hired an attorney? The owner needs to send a termination letter to the contractor, not just throw them off the job. Without proper notification and documentation, getting money back may be more difficult. Probably won't be able to get any money back anyway but clients often times want to try. Dealing with a case like that now actually.
    The other issue is that sometimes the real scumbag contractors will file breach of contract against the owner in an attempt to either get the rest of the contract sum or negate any claim by the owner. Tell your client to contact an attorney so he is protected.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kev cornett View Post
    The homeowner placed shims under joists.The joist were nailed flush with band and not cut to sill plate properly.The band sheathing poping loose poor nailing.Some of the worst carpentry ive seen in awhile
    The notch cut in the joist represents a potential structural issue. I withhold full judgment because I can't see the entire joist and don't know details. Can you supply more photos and info?

    You may want to consider contacting the municipal inspector and request immediate on-site consultation. Give them a heads-up to what's going on so they arrive prepared.

    Fred Comb, ACI
    Mahtomedi, MN
    www.homeinspectionsofmn.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    I did ask why this was discovered so late after roof installed and all other work done so far. The sub was supposed to frame in the crawl entry but they didnt.A month later after all other destruction was done they cut in crawl.
    He then inspected it and found all these problems.At that time he proceded to chew the Company a new 1 . And demanded a pre-wall inspection,
    Ive called in an engineer .Of course im going to push for a teardown and redo . I dont think the Company understands the severity of the problems here.But they soon will.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Comb View Post
    The notch cut in the joist represents a potential structural issue. I withhold full judgment because I can't see the entire joist and don't know details. Can you supply more photos and info?

    You may want to consider contacting the municipal inspector and request immediate on-site consultation. Give them a heads-up to what's going on so they arrive prepared.
    This is a 7 1/2' span from girder to outside wall , you can use 2x6 floor joist on this span with bridging and be in code guidlines.They turned these 2x8's into 2x6 basically .Reality they would range 2x7 mostly and a few 2x6 1/2 if done correctly.
    They were aware of the special notching required here in order to bring the floor back to level but failed miserably in there efforts.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mark tyson View Post
    It looks like the low bidder got the job
    It is amazing that so many things have gone wrong on a 480 sq/ft addition.
    I don't think the tilt is the result of load stress in that if the wall framing is 2x4 there would 2" bearing on the joists.
    Rather due to all of the other poor workmanship defects that you are describing my guess is that some or all of the joists were cut long. Rather than going back to the saw table the "carpenter" got out the sledge hammer and drove it home. Because the band joist is nailed to the sill plate the bottom held causing the the unreinforced masonry to tilt
    Yea i agree on a slab wall of 4"s with rebar set in the footer there desighned for that type of pressure.
    block is totally different you have to be sub-center / or center with your load carry especially if its not a filled concrete block wall .
    Luckily the homeowner did fill several areas of block where illistrated in the drawings.Or the whole run would have buckled and possibly collapsed toward the back wall.


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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Why speak in the third person??? It is obvious that YOU are the subject homeowner.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    While it is pretty messed up in a lot of ways, it doesn't look like the ends of the joists are over-notched. You do know they are allowed to notch joists, right?


  17. #17

    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    While it is pretty messed up in a lot of ways, it doesn't look like the ends of the joists are over-notched. You do know they are allowed to notch joists, right?
    Here in Alberta you are only permitted to notch the TOP of the joists.

    Egbert Jager
    Diamond Home Inspection
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Here in the USA the IRC allows notching in a lot of places. The ends, top or bottom, just not in the middle third. Obviously there are depth limits.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    This thread is strange.

    There is a difference in bending loads and shear loads placed on a joist.....which contributes to where and how much a joist is allowed to be notched.

    The wall sheathing stopped at the plate instead of continued down over the rim band is always a pretty good indication of piss poor work.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    Kev,
    If the owner found and tried to correct all of these problems and now has you involved, where in the world was the owner while it was being built???

    I have some real questions about how he contracted for this work and his complicity in the issues that your are presenting. This was not built overnight.

    Was this done by migrant illegal gypsy contractors?


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Poor Fraiming ?

    This thread is over 7 months old, and after H.G. called out the poster as being a sock puppet we've heard nothing since. I suspect any time spent continuing the discussion here is for naught.


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