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  1. #1
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    Default Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    The electrician was trying to keep his wires inside the framed wall in this basement so sheetrock could be installed without interference from the wires. This is a non-load bearing (floating) wall beside the basement stairs. He drilled through the top plate of the floating wall and through the bottom flange of the engineered floor joist. That basically killed this joist. Luckily this is a double joist being beside the stair opening but I wrote it up anyway as possibly needing repair (monitor and repair as needed).

    It would have been very simple for the electrician to have bored through one more stud and come in behind the stairs and then through the web of the engineered floor joist (as is permitted).

    This is only the latest example that I have seen where plumbers and electricians butcher the structure to put their stuff in. I remember a few months ago seeing a TJI completely cut in two where the plumber cut it to install his drainpipe below a huge whirlpool tub. Large load (tub full of water and two overweight Americans) + no floor joist = trouble.

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  2. #2
    Jimmy Breazeale's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    As a former sparky, I am ashamed to see that. But I have always contended that it is the plumbers who should have special CE courses in the proper use of power equipment. I definitely see a whole lot more defects caused by the pipe guys than by sparkies. Or maybe, from the point of view of the plumbers, we should just take it all the way back to the architects whose designs cause that joist to be positioned directly under the tub drain?


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    If there was an architect. Most of the time here, if it's under 5000 square feet an architect was never consulted.

    The builder (or his spouse) designs, the Client makes on site changes, the builder says "sure" and the plumbers and electricians are left to figure it out.

    There are a couple of new builders here who actually go on site. I have noticed that at their places the work sites are always clean and few of these type framing screwups occur. They hold team meetings with the subs before the project and everybody understands that they will pay to correct a screw up of another guy's completed work.

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  4. #4
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    Post Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    I wish I had pictures handy to share. This one is relatively minor compared to some that I have noted. In one instance, an engineered joist was cut and left hanging, so the plumbing could go in. Brand new house. Builders primary worry was whether or not the cherry stain matched on the flooring and railings on the second floor. Oh boy.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Aldering View Post
    This one is relatively minor compared to some that I have noted.
    I agree. I have seen MUCH worse. I just happened to have that one handy when I was on IN and decided to post it.

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    Bruce Breedlove
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  6. #6
    imported_John Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    It doesnt look like he damaged the wires!


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Certainly more is better - right?

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Why use the knockout located 12" away when you can cut out the entire web?

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    Bruce Breedlove
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  9. #9
    Chad Fabry's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    This is only the latest example that I have seen where plumbers and electricians butcher the structure to put their stuff in.
    In new construction I blame the framing crews and /or the architects. They know where the tub is going and the architect should spec the floor joist lay-out to accommodate the drain plumbing. If the architect doesn't spec it right then the builder should catch it and fix the problem. Everyone should be thinking through the building process rather than acting like automatons fulfilling pre-programmed tasks. I've done enough of every trade to understand the plumber's frustration when arriving at the site he or she observes no provision was made for waste plumbing. It makes you want to go to the van and get a chainsaw.

    I remember a few months ago seeing a TJI completely cut in two where the plumber cut it to install his drainpipe below a huge whirlpool tub. Large load (tub full of water and two overweight Americans) + no floor joist = trouble.
    That's not quite accurate. The human body is just barely more dense than water. If our lungs are full of air we're slightly less dense. So, the tub weighs approximately the same whether it's filled with water or fat people; you can't fill it with both. ie, fat people displace water and so when they get out there's about a gallon left in tub.


  10. #10
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Fabry View Post
    So, the tub weighs approximately the same whether it's filled with water or fat people; you can't fill it with both. ie, fat people displace water and so when they get out there's about a gallon left in tub.
    Not if they are standing up in the tub or a good portion of them are above the water level.

    Think inverted iceberg.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled program....


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove View Post
    That basically killed this joist. Luckily this is a double joist being beside the stair opening but I wrote it up anyway as possibly needing repair (monitor and repair as needed).
    That killed joist don't need no stinkin' monitoring, it needs replacing! Unless it didn't need to be there in the first place, which seems unlikely.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Hey, let's not forget HVAC guys, in "human termite" mode they are capable of certainly keeping right up there with the rest of the colony, as for example at today' inspection, where they had been dining on the trimmers below a load bearing wall:

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  13. #13
    Tim Saunders's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Bruce, this happens all the time with Wood I's, recommend engineered repair detail. Unless the builder bought the material off the shelf, there should be a engineered plan for this house. which will have the engineer of record listed.

    The HVAC guys do the most damage because they cannot hear the house falling down over the noise of the chainsaws.

    Good luck
    Tim


  14. #14
    Matt Vozzella's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    I have seen conflicts and shoddy work by all trades.

    On new construction it ALWAYS boils down to a shoddy, uninvolved G.C. I've seen too many that want to sit in their trailers and only deal with stuff if someone knocks on the door.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Why only cut one "I" joist, when they can cut 3 consecutive "I" joist

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Plumbers & Electricians Should Not Be Allowed Power Tools

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Martin View Post
    Why only cut one "I" joist, when they can cut 3 consecutive "I" joist

    I found that in a new house a few times where the I-joist had been made with square openings for the duct work, etc., to be run through, then I-joists installed backward, then the a/c contractor did just what you show in that photo.

    As I was doing code inspections on them, I said have the I-joist manufacturer's engineer sign off on them.

    They did, with a LOT or repairs to the I-joists.

    After being given the signed and sealed document showing *how to* repair them, I said 'That's fine, but I need what I told you I needed - a signed and sealed document which states the repairs were made in accordance with the engineering.', which I got a couple of days later, and only then was it signed off, not based on what I thought about the I-joists but based on what the engineer said about them with is signature and seal - HE bought them.

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