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  1. #1
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    Default FRaming cantiliver question

    A house I was in today had a brick foundation and no sill plate with anchor bolts. The perimeter band was set down on top of the brick veneer. At the front they had not even placed the load bearing exterior wall over the brick but had the joist cantilevered with a double girder as the pic shows. So the load bearing wall is above the duble band board here. What do you say about that one.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by ren ramsey View Post
    A house I was in today had a brick foundation and no sill plate with anchor bolts. The perimeter band was set down on top of the brick veneer.
    Why do you call it "brick veneer" when you first referred to it as a "brick foundation"? Or are there two different 'walls'?

    Was the brick wall single wythe or double wythe?

    The main thing missing would be the sill plate and anchor bolts.

    If otherwise done properly, that cantilever should be okay (less than 1/3 of the span rating of the joists and less than 1/3 of the span of the joists - unless the span was only 30" or so.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Why do you call it "brick veneer" when you first referred to it as a "brick foundation"? Or are there two different 'walls'?

    Was the brick wall single wythe or double wythe?

    The main thing missing would be the sill plate and anchor bolts.

    If otherwise done properly, that cantilever should be okay (less than 1/3 of the span rating of the joists and less than 1/3 of the span of the joists - unless the span was only 30" or so.
    Sorry for the veneer statement. It was a multi wythe. Just never seen it cantilevered like that. I know that was a mistake even though it may work. I see lot's of foundations with no anchor bolts but never seen one without a sill plate.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by ren ramsey View Post
    I see lot's of foundations with no anchor bolts but never seen one without a sill plate.
    Can be constructed without a sill plate/mud sill, however, typically the sill plate is PT and bedded on the top of the masonry, with non-PT joists on top of the PT sill plate - without the sill plate each joist would be required to be PT and each joist would need to be set and shimmed to the correct height so that the top of each was in a single plane so the floor would be in a single plane, otherwise the tops of the joists and the floor would be going up and down like a roller coaster because it is highly unlikely that the tops of the bricks would all be 'level' (in a single plane).

    Combine that with the joists being PT and the sizes of the PT joists would vary depending on how wet they still were and how they dried out, plus PT wood has reduced load capacity while 'wet' and would need to have larger joists or closer spacing of the joists, either that or store the joists until they were all dried out to 19% moisture content or less (which may mean buying the lumber for the joists one year and installing them the next year (depending on where they are stored and how they dry out) - and that is just not practical.

    My biggest concern may be the lack of the joists being PT and resting on masonry (there may be 'bigger concerns' but the cost of properly correcting the non-PT joists may become a great expense, too many unknowns to say for sure how great the expense may be), that combined with the missing anchor bolts (but straps could be added down the brick foundation wall face and anchored to the face of the brick).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Can be constructed without a sill plate/mud sill, however, typically the sill plate is PT and bedded on the top of the masonry, with non-PT joists on top of the PT sill plate - without the sill plate each joist would be required to be PT and each joist would need to be set and shimmed to the correct height so that the top of each was in a single plane so the floor would be in a single plane, otherwise the tops of the joists and the floor would be going up and down like a roller coaster because it is highly unlikely that the tops of the bricks would all be 'level' (in a single plane).

    Combine that with the joists being PT and the sizes of the PT joists would vary depending on how wet they still were and how they dried out, plus PT wood has reduced load capacity while 'wet' and would need to have larger joists or closer spacing of the joists, either that or store the joists until they were all dried out to 19% moisture content or less (which may mean buying the lumber for the joists one year and installing them the next year (depending on where they are stored and how they dry out) - and that is just not practical.

    My biggest concern may be the lack of the joists being PT and resting on masonry (there may be 'bigger concerns' but the cost of properly correcting the non-PT joists may become a great expense, too many unknowns to say for sure how great the expense may be), that combined with the missing anchor bolts (but straps could be added down the brick foundation wall face and anchored to the face of the brick).
    How long have anchor bolts been required. I see loads of homes without them. Unless they are 5 years or less most do not have them.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by ren ramsey View Post
    How long have anchor bolts been required. I see loads of homes without them. Unless they are 5 years or less most do not have them.
    They are in the 2006 North Carolina code.

    I tried checking the older North Carolina code on the ICC site but it is not responding now. Not sure if it was in the previous code or not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    They are in the 2006 North Carolina code.

    I tried checking the older North Carolina code on the ICC site but it is not responding now. Not sure if it was in the previous code or not.
    I don't know the exact code cycle but anchor bolts were not required before 1989 when Hurricane Hugo changed the mind set of the code writers. Happened on the following cycle when ever that was.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Can't speak for code or NC but my father was a General Contractor in Virginia Beach in the 1950-60's. I don't recall ever seeing any permanent building he built that didn't have anchor bolts and a mud sill. Okay - the beach houses on piers didn't. Prior to pressure treated wood, they put galvanized sheet metal termite shields on top of the foundation and piers.

    He built beach houses at Sand Bridge in the late 60's and early 70's. He was a picky builder and straightened pilings as much as possible before cutting seats in the creosote pilings and bolting fir beams to them. A lot of the houses on piers looked similar but you tell his jobs by looking at the pilings.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  9. #9
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    Default Re: FRaming cantiliver question

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    Can't speak for code or NC but my father was a General Contractor in Virginia Beach in the 1950-60's. I don't recall ever seeing any permanent building he built that didn't have anchor bolts and a mud sill. Okay - the beach houses on piers didn't. Prior to pressure treated wood, they put galvanized sheet metal termite shields on top of the foundation and piers.

    He built beach houses at Sand Bridge in the late 60's and early 70's. He was a picky builder and straightened pilings as much as possible before cutting seats in the creosote pilings and bolting fir beams to them. A lot of the houses on piers looked similar but you tell his jobs by looking at the pilings.
    The homes built on the coast were built differently than the ones inland, then Hugo showed us how far a hurricane can go inland!

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

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