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  1. #1
    Nicole Rathbun's Avatar
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    Default Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Can anyone provide us any guidance on if having this steel beam supported by 2x6's in the foundation wall is something that is common and structurally sound? Everything we have read suggests that steel needs to be supported by steel and wood with wood. Any help or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Should be pressure treated or protected from contact with masonry or concrete.

    The stack of wood is stronger vertically than laying flat, but, laying flat would be more stable.

    I'm thinking that the pocket in the concrete foundation wall was made for the beam to sit in, but someone misjudged the height of the beam and had to raise the beam above the foundation wall.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Jerry, thank you for your response. One side of the beam is secured in the foundation supported by a cut steel post to accommodate the extra height, the other side has these 2x6s. We're not sure why they would do each side differently. In your opinion, what would be the best way to remedy this issue?


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Support the end of the beam on a steel column like the other end is, and remove the wood, or remove the wood and install a bolted in short steel columns in that pocket in the foundation wall.

    There are several options for correcting the end with the wood ... but as to why that was done - no idea as we were not there when they did it.

    Sometimes ... Git R Done Wid Wat Cha Got works ... sometimes not.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Should be pressure treated or protected from contact with masonry or concrete.
    Jerry, would this still be true if the bottom of the concrete pocket is 18" above grade?

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I wouldn't worry about correcting that if there is no indication of movement and no chance of moisture damage.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  7. #7
    Nicole Rathbun's Avatar
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Thanks for your feedback everyone! So, it sounds like to be on the safe side, we could replace the wood with a cut steel beam, but it's not necessary to move forward with the purchase. This wood is about 6-8 inches above grade, and there's currently no signs of any movement or water damage now, but we want to be sure this will hold up long term. Does anyone have any educated guesses on how much that replacement would cost to have done?


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Rathbun View Post
    Thanks for your feedback everyone! So, it sounds like to be on the safe side, we could replace the wood with a cut steel beam, but it's not necessary to move forward with the purchase. This wood is about 6-8 inches above grade, and there's currently no signs of any movement or water damage now, but we want to be sure this will hold up long term. Does anyone have any educated guesses on how much that replacement would cost to have done?
    If it was me I would just monitor the wood for moisture and have it replaced if it ever goes above 20%. The replacement should be easy with limited risk as the support is wood and can be cut out reducing the need to raise the beam for removal. I would think it could be done in less than an hour so figure the price from there. JMHO

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry, would this still be true if the bottom of the concrete pocket is 18" above grade?
    .Yes.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    A screw type floor jack or hydraulic jack could be used to raise the steel girder just enough to allow removal of the wood, a form board could be attached over the pocket, the pocket filled with concrete with a couple of straps embedded in the concrete, then the form board removed and the straps attached to the beam.

    The concern I have is that if the beam was intended to be in the pocket ... why isn't it and does the beam need lateral support ... an engineer should provide those answers.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .Yes.
    Jerry, I think this might be one of those trick questions the test writers love. 2006 NC Residential code: R319.1.2 and R319.1.4 (Sorry can't cut and paste to here) Is the wood a girder or a plate?

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I am not exactly sure what a girder is, but maybe the second picture could help you see if it's a girder or plate?


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Rathbun View Post
    I am not exactly sure what a girder is, but maybe the second picture could help you see if it's a girder or plate?
    Nicole, I'm rattling Jerry's chain a little bit here. (friendly giggle) The question is related to code requirement for treated lumber. If the wood could be considered a girder (which I don't think it can) then it would need to be treated. If it is considered a plate or sill, and it is 8" or more above grade, it can be un-treated wood. I have the advantage of not knowing when the building permit was issued so I can use any code cycle I like. (2006)

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Nicole, I'm rattling Jerry's chain a little bit here. (friendly giggle) The question is related to code requirement for treated lumber.
    Those vertical pieces of wood could also be considered a column, albeit a very short column, or framing members, or embedded in concrete, or ...

    From the other thread Vern is referring to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    Wood is required to be either pressure treated (or be one of the durable wood species) when in contact with concrete or separated from the concrete if not pressure treated.


    From the IRC: (underlining and bold are mine and have been changed from the other tread)
    - SECTION R317 PROTECTION OF WOOD AND WOOD BASED PRODUCTS AGAINST DECAY
    - - R317.1 Location required.
    - - - Protection of wood and wood based products from decay shall be provided in the following locations by the use of naturally durable wood or wood that is preservative-treated in accordance with AWPA U1 for the species, product, preservative and end use. Preservatives shall be listed in Section 4 of AWPA U1.
    - - - - 1. Wood joists or the bottom of a wood structural floor when closer than 18 inches (457 mm) or wood girders when closer than 12 inches (305 mm) to the exposed ground in crawl spaces or unexcavated area located within the periphery of the building foundation.
    - - - - 2. All wood framing members that rest on concrete or masonry exterior foundation walls and are less than 8 inches (203 mm) from the exposed ground.
    - - - - 3. Sills and sleepers on a concrete or masonry slab that is in direct contact with the ground unless separated from such slab by an impervious moisture barrier.
    - - - - 4. The ends of wood girders entering exterior masonry or concrete walls having clearances of less than 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) on tops, sides and ends.
    - - - - 5. Wood siding, sheathing and wall framing on the exterior of a building having a clearance of less than 6 inches (152 mm) from the ground or less than 2 inches (51 mm) measured vertically from concrete steps, porch slabs, patio slabs, and similar horizontal surfaces exposed to the weather.
    - - - - 6. Wood structural members supporting moisture-permeable floors or roofs that are exposed to the weather, such as concrete or masonry slabs, unless separated from such floors or roofs by an impervious moisture barrier.
    - - - - 7. Wood furring strips or other wood framing members attached directly to the interior of exterior masonry walls or concrete walls below grade except where an approved vapor retarder is applied between the wall and the furring strips or framing members.
    - - - R317.1.1 Field treatment.
    - - - - Field-cut ends, notches and drilled holes of preservative-treated wood shall be treated in the field in accordance with AWPA M4.
    - - - R317.1.2 Ground contact.
    - - - - All wood in contact with the ground, embedded in concrete in direct contact with the ground or embedded in concrete exposed to the weather that supports permanent structures intended for human occupancy shall be approved pressure-preservative-treated wood suitable for ground contact use, except untreated wood may be used where entirely below groundwater level or continuously submerged in fresh water.
    - - - R317.1.3 Geographical areas.
    - - - - In geographical areas where experience has demonstrated a specific need, approved naturally durable or pressure-preservative-treated wood shall be used for those portions of wood members that form the structural supports of buildings, balconies, porches or similar permanent building appurtenances when those members are exposed to the weather without adequate protection from a roof, eave, overhang or other covering that would prevent moisture or water accumulation on the surface or at joints between members. Depending on local experience, such members may include:
    - - - - - 1. Horizontal members such as girders, joists and decking.
    - - - - - 2. Vertical members such as posts, poles and columns.
    - - - - - 3. Both horizontal and vertical members.
    - - - R317.1.4 Wood columns.
    - - - - Wood columns shall be approved wood of natural decay resistance or approved pressure-preservative-treated wood.
    - - - - - Exceptions:
    - - - - - - 1. Columns exposed to the weather or in basements when supported by concrete piers or metal pedestals projecting 1 inch (25.4 mm) above a concrete floor or 6 inches (152 mm) above exposed earth and the earth is covered by an approved impervious moisture barrier.
    - - - - - - 2. Columns in enclosed crawl spaces or unexcavated areas located within the periphery of the building when supported by a concrete pier or metal pedestal at a height more than 8 inches (203 mm) from exposed earth and the earth is covered by an impervious moisture barrier.
    - - - R317.1.5 Exposed glued-laminated timbers.
    - - - - The portions of glued-laminated timbers that form the structural supports of a building or other structure and are exposed to weather and not properly protected by a roof, eave or similar covering shall be pressure treated with preservative, or be manufactured from naturally durable or preservative-treated wood.
    I knew Vern was fishing, so I snagged his hook on an old rubber boot stuck in the bottom and yanked his line so he would think he caught something.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Those vertical pieces of wood could also be considered a column, albeit a very short column, or framing members, or embedded in concrete, or ...

    From the other thread Vern is referring to:



    I knew Vern was fishing, so I snagged his hook on an old rubber boot stuck in the bottom and yanked his line so he would think he caught something.
    Can we call the wood "embedded"?

    em·bed
    əmˈbed/
    verb
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]past tense: embedded; past participle: embedded[/COLOR]

    • 1.
      fix (an object) firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he had an operation to remove a nail embedded in his chest"[/COLOR]





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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Can we call the wood "embedded"?

    em·bed
    əmˈbed/
    verb
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]past tense: embedded; past participle: embedded[/COLOR]

    • 1.
      fix (an object) firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he had an operation to remove a nail embedded in his chest"[/COLOR]



    Just to be clear that's not a nail and that's not a chest it's embedded in.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Just to be clear that's not a nail and that's not a chest it's embedded in.
    fix (an object) firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I frequently see steel I' beams supported by built-up wood columns in garage ceilings; what is the difference here?

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Not up here.

    9.20.8.3.(1) Bearing of Beams and Joists
    9.23.2.2. and 9.23.2.3. Protection from Decay and Dampness
    It is the decision of the Building Code Commission that the use of wood and grout as bearing for the
    steel beams located in the basement of the subject Group C occupancy does not provide sufficiency of
    compliance with Sentence 9.20.8.3.(1) of the Ontario Building Code.


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    fix (an object) firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
    That very short wood column is "firmly and deeply in a surrounding" pocket - see the concrete/mortar/whatever around it and over it?

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That very short wood column is "firmly and deeply in a surrounding" pocket - see the concrete/mortar/whatever around it and over it?
    sur·round
    səˈround/
    verb
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

    • 1.
      be all around (someone or something). and the steel I' beam is over it.





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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    sur·round
    səˈround/
    verb
    [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

    • 1.
      be all around (someone or something). and the steel I' beam is over it.


    Sooo ...


    "EMBEDDED STRAPS" ... such as those "embedded in concrete" are not "embedded" after all? NOTHING is "over" them - they are ONLY surrounded by concrete four sides and the bottom, the top of the straps stick up and out of the concrete.

    I guess that "embedded" knife example you gave did not actually have an "embedded" knife in the chest because the handle of the knife was sticking out and not "embedded" in the chest too.

    Vern, You are stretching so much and so far that I am sure your back is aching and killing you - you really need to put on fall protection before bending that far over the edge.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sooo ...


    "EMBEDDED STRAPS" ... such as those "embedded in concrete" are not "embedded" after all? NOTHING is "over" them - they are ONLY surrounded by concrete four sides and the bottom, the top of the straps stick up and out of the concrete.

    I guess that "embedded" knife example you gave did not actually have an "embedded" knife in the chest because the handle of the knife was sticking out and not "embedded" in the chest too.

    Vern, You are stretching so much and so far that I am sure your back is aching and killing you - you really need to put on fall protection before bending that far over the edge.
    Jerry, your post suggested the wood column was surrounded by concrete and also has concrete "over" it. The wood column is open on one side, not "surrounded", and what is over the column is the steel I' beam, not concrete.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Rathbun View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry, your post suggested the wood column was surrounded by concrete and also has concrete "over" it. The wood column is open on one side, not "surrounded", and what is over the column is the steel I' beam, not concrete.
    You don't call that surrounded by concrete?

    Concrete on the right side, concrete on the left side, concrete on the back side, concrete on the bottom ... and that is not "surrounded" by concrete?

    If you say so, but then I guess you will never get stuck in mud or dirt or anything because your tires will never be "surrounded" by them and you will be able to drive right out from the dirt or mud "under" your tires.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Can we call the wood "embedded"?

    em·bed
    əmˈbed/
    verb
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]past tense: embedded; past participle: embedded[/COLOR]

    • 1.
      fix (an object) firmly and deeply in a surrounding mass.
      [COLOR=#878787 !important]"he had an operation to remove a nail embedded in his chest"[/COLOR]


    I'll see your definition and raise you one: (red, bold text is mine for highlighting)

    em·bed

    verb \im-ˈbed\: to place or set (something) firmly in something else


    em·bed·ded also im·bed·dedem·bed·ding alsoim·bed·ding








    Full Definition of EMBED

    transitive verb
    1
    a : to enclose closely in or as if in a matrix <fossilsembedded in stone>
    b : to make something an integral part of <the prejudicesembedded in our language>
    c : to prepare (a microscopy specimen) for sectioning by infiltrating with and enclosing in a supporting substance

    2
    : to surround closely <a sweet pulp embeds the plum seed>

    intransitive verb
    : to become embedded
    em·bed·ment noun

    See embed defined for English-language learners »

    See embed defined for kids »

    Variants of EMBED

    em·bed also im·bed

    Examples of EMBED

    1. embed a post in concrete
    2. <the nails were solidly embedded in those old plaster walls>




    As in: "Someone went to a lot of trouble to EMBED that very short post in concrete."

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I'll see your definition and raise you one: (red, bold text is mine for highlighting)

    em·bed

    verb \im-ˈbed\: to place or set (something) firmly in something else


    em·bed·ded also im·bed·dedem·bed·ding alsoim·bed·ding








    Full Definition of EMBED

    transitive verb
    1
    a : to enclose closely in or as if in a matrix <fossilsembedded in stone>
    b : to make something an integral part of <the prejudicesembedded in our language>
    c : to prepare (a microscopy specimen) for sectioning by infiltrating with and enclosing in a supporting substance

    2
    : to
    surround closely <a sweet pulp embeds the plum seed>

    intransitive verb
    : to become embedded
    em·bed·ment noun

    See embed defined for English-language learners »

    See embed defined for kids »

    Variants of EMBED

    em·bed also im·bed

    Examples of EMBED


    1. embed a post in concrete
    2. <the nails were solidly embedded in those old plaster walls>




    As in: "Someone went to a lot of trouble to EMBED that very short post in concrete."
    I have high lighted what corroborates my definition in green.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I think it would be a mistake to leave the wood supports in place, particularly since this is new construction. Even though things look dry and sound now, over time there's a good chance of moisture working its way through the wall and causing the wood to rot, resulting in settlement of the house (cracking drywall and the repair of same will continue long after the new home warranty runs out)--that jagged, mostly vertical crack adjacent to the beam pocket looks wide enough to pass lots of water under the right conditions). If nothing else, properly-installed steel supports would eliminate delays in a future sale of the property, as most astute home inspectors would call out the improper wood supports.

    FWIW, the steel beam shown is not an I-beam, but rather is commonly known as either a Miscellaneous or W-beam. W-beams (wide flanges) have flanges with parallel faces, while I-beams have narrower flanges with non-parallel faces.


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I have high lighted what corroborates my definition in green.
    Except that we are discussing a post embedded in concrete (see my red highlighting) and not nails embedded in old plaster walls.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    While this will probably perform ok, several concerns could be raised. If this is looked at as a column (which technically it is) then the members are not attached together properly. If you apply the same thinking as a wood beam supported by masonry then R317.1, #4 (2009 IRC) calls for clearance at sides and ends. It would also have to meet bearing requirements, which is probably not an issue with end grain bearing and that area (No 2 HEM-FIR would support about 10,000 pounds).


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    While this will probably perform ok, several concerns could be raised. If this is looked at as a column (which technically it is) then the members are not attached together properly. If you apply the same thinking as a wood beam supported by masonry then R317.1, #4 (2009 IRC) calls for clearance at sides and ends. It would also have to meet bearing requirements, which is probably not an issue with end grain bearing and that area (No 2 HEM-FIR would support about 10,000 pounds).
    Mark, the treated wood exception of being greater than 8" above grade is where this whole banter began. We latter learned that it is close to 8" but the question was whether or not it would meet code if greater than 8" above grade. Jerry went to the requirement of all columns embedded in concrete are required to be treated or decay resistant, the definition of "embedded" has been the hurdle.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Except that we are discussing a post embedded in concrete (see my red highlighting) and not nails embedded in old plaster walls.
    Both or our posted definitions of "embedded" have surrounded in them. If Florida was "surrounded" by water, it would be an island.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    And if the moon were truly composed of green cheese, a lot of Green Bay Packer fans would be living there. So what?

    None of this frivolous argument over semantics has done anything to help the original poster and her problem, has it?


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by BridgeMan View Post
    And if the moon were truly composed of green cheese, a lot of Green Bay Packer fans would be living there. So what?

    None of this frivolous argument over semantics has done anything to help the original poster and her problem, has it?
    The OP's question related to how much of a problem is this piece of wood and what should she do about it. As she is questioning if they should buy the house or not suggest it is not new construction. If she request it be replaced buy the seller she should have all of the correct information available to support her claim that it is wrong and must be replaced. As I posted previously, I don't see it as being a very expensive job and if the seller refuses to make the repair it can wait and may not be necessary at all. This house could be 20 years old, we don't know.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Mark, the treated wood exception of being greater than 8" above grade is where this whole banter began. We latter learned that it is close to 8" but the question was whether or not it would meet code if greater than 8" above grade. Jerry went to the requirement of all columns embedded in concrete are required to be treated or decay resistant, the definition of "embedded" has been the hurdle.
    When a wood beam is in direct contact with masonry I would say it is embedded. The code reference I cited would clearly call for airspace. I think the same would apply here, but they would make the beam less stable. In summary, I can see reasons why this would not meet code, but if it was above grade I would not loose a lot of sleep over this.


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Or even lose a lot of sleep over it.


    Loose is the opposite of tight.


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Sorry for the last post. Brain fart.
    Geez Louise, I even had to open a window.

    I have no issues with the concrete surrounding the wood.

    Looks like a cedar shime atop that 2x6" lam shim in contact with the metal/steel beam.
    beam and ceder wedge.JPG
    I do not consider the wood a girder.

    Observation: The vertical crack in the foundation at a bearing point.
    Recommend: Yearly observation.

    Concrete and embedded wood.

    R317.1 Location required.
    Protection of wood and wood based products from decay shall be provided in the following locations by the use of naturally durable wood or wood that is preservative-treated in accordance with AWPA U1 for the species, product, preservative and end use. Preservatives shall be listed in Section 4 of AWPA U1.

    1. Wood joists or the bottom of a wood structural floor when closer than 18 inches (457 mm) or wood girders when closer than 12 inches (305 mm) to the exposed ground in crawl spaces or unexcavated area located within the periphery of the building foundation.2. All wood framing members that rest on concrete or masonry exterior foundation walls and are less than 8 inches (203 mm) from the exposed ground.3. Sills and sleepers on a concrete or masonry slab that is in direct contact with the ground unless separated from such slab by an impervious moisture barrier.4. The ends of wood girders entering exterior masonry or concrete walls having clearances of less than 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) on tops, sides and ends.5. Wood siding, sheathing and wall framing on the exterior of a building having a clearance of less than 6 inches (152 mm) from the ground or less than 2 inches (51 mm) measured vertically from concrete steps, porch slabs, patio slabs, and similar horizontal surfaces exposed to the weather.6. Wood structural members supporting moisture-permeable floors or roofs that are exposed to the weather, such as concrete or masonry slabs, unless separated from such floors or roofs by an impervious moisture barrier.7. Wood furring strips or other wood framing members attached directly to the interior of exterior masonry walls or concrete walls below grade except where an approved vapor retarder is applied between the wall and the furring strips or framing members. R317.1.1 Field treatment.
    Field-cut ends, notches and drilled holes of preservative-treated wood shall be treated in the field in accordance with AWPA M4. R317.1.2 Ground contact.
    All wood in contact with the ground, embedded in concrete in direct contact with the ground or embedded in concrete exposed to the weather that supports permanent structures intended for human occupancy shall be approved pressure-preservative-treated wood suitable for ground contact use, except untreated wood may be used where entirely below groundwater level or continuously submerged in fresh water. R317.1.3 Geographical areas.
    In geographical areas where experience has demonstrated a specific need, approved naturally durable or pressure-preservative-treated wood shall be used for those portions of wood members that form the structural supports of buildings, balconies, porches or similar permanent building appurtenances when those members are exposed to the weather without adequate protection from a roof, eave, overhang or other covering that would prevent moisture or water accumulation on the surface or at joints between members. Depending on local experience, such members may include:1. Horizontal members such as girders, joists and decking.2. Vertical members such as posts, poles and columns.3. Both horizontal and vertical members. R317.1.4 Wood columns.
    Wood columns shall be approved wood of natural decay resistance or approved pressure-preservative-treated wood.

    Exceptions:
    1. Columns exposed to the weather or in basements when supported by concrete piers or metal pedestals projecting 1 inch (25.4 mm) above a concrete floor or 6 inches (152 mm) above exposed earth and the earth is covered by an approved impervious moisture barrier.2. Columns in enclosed crawl spaces or unexcavated areas located within the periphery of the building when supported by a concrete pier or metal pedestal at a height more than 8 inches (203 mm) from exposed earth and the earth is covered by an impervious moisture barrier.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    "Observation: The vertical crack in the foundation at a bearing point.
    Recommend: Yearly observation."

    These kinds of statements in reports only serve to confuse buyers. Kind of meaningless.

    Almost every vertical crack in a concrete foundation wall is caused by shrinkage. They often happen at beam pockets because of stress concentrations at corners. The load from a beam could not cause this type of crack to occur. The shear stress in the concrete is very small due to the load of the beam.



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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    How does suggestion of monitoring something cause confusion?


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I must confuse allot of my clients. Ha ha ha ha

    Mark, I am truly at a loss for words.

    Now I might be wrong here but I thought the objective of a home inspector/home inspection was to inform and educate.
    In my humblest opinion, I feel I have the ability to do so.
    I take the confusion out of the equation. That is called educating.

    I also think all homeowners should be observing their homes on a yearly bases. Predictive/preventative maintenance is the key to success.
    That also takes yearly observations.

    Best regards.

    Ray, I asked myself the same question.
    I guess that is what makes us homies different.
    I was taught by Mr. Cooke, write hard and talk soft.
    I try to follow the best.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    "Observation: The vertical crack in the foundation at a bearing point.
    Recommend: Yearly observation."

    These kinds of statements in reports only serve to confuse buyers. Kind of meaningless.
    I kinda agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    How does suggestion of monitoring something cause confusion?
    If it is significant enough to go into the report then there should be an explanation.
    Don't leave the HO to interpret your concern (or non-concern).
    Obliviously, you have some concern, or why else put it in the report.
    Tell the HO what you are concerned about, even if the concern is highly unlikely, or don't mention it at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Now I might be wrong here but I thought the objective of a home inspector/home inspection was to inform and educate.
    In my humblest opinion, I feel I have the ability to do so.
    I take the confusion out of the equation. That is called educating.
    Don't presume the HO understands what you understand.
    Just saying "monitor yearly", is not enough information to the HO.
    First, describe the concern.
    There is a crack located in xxx.
    In my opinion the crack does not affect the structural integrity ..... and is of little concern.
    Second, tell the HO what to do.
    However I recommend that the crack be monitored ....
    Next, tell the HO who to consult with.
    If there is a significant (>than ?") change consult with a xxx.

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 12-20-2014 at 05:05 AM.
    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Bare with me colleagues.
    I see relevance in a question I have.

    Is the foundation prefabricated?
    I see a notch.
    Why would there be relief cuts and a notch at the top of a site poured foundation?

    If so, this dispels any shrinkage theory/hypothesis.
    I can also hypothesize live loading concerns and it might have to do with the beams bearing point.

    I am off to an inspection.
    Awaiting replies.

    foundation crack # 1.JPGfoundation crack..JPGfoundation #2.JPG

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Don't presume the HO understands what you understand.
    I agree. That is rarely the case.

    Just saying "monitor yearly", is not enough information to the HO.
    Agree. I should have said monitor for movement and expressed how to monitor.
    I am purchasing monitoring equipment shortly and will produce my own as well.

    First, describe the concern.
    Unable as of yet.

    Rick, I have avoided continuing my hypothesis.
    I will await further replies from my last post.
    Thank you!



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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Now I might be wrong here but I thought the objective of a home inspector/home inspection was to inform and educate.
    In my humblest opinion, I feel I have the ability to do so.
    I take the confusion out of the equation. That is called educating.
    Not having wanted to respond to your other posts in this manner ... may I suggest that your opinion of your abilities for doing such has not been displayed to us here.

    More arrogance and self-righteousness than explaining and educating is what I've seen - and, yes, I have noticed a change from your first posts - albeit a small change - for the better.

    Just thought you may like to know to assist in further changes in that same direction.

    I also think all homeowners should be observing their homes on a yearly bases. Predictive/preventative maintenance is the key to success.
    That also takes yearly observations.
    Making yearly observations for what comes up, yes, but for observing something the HI thinks may not be right, no.

    If one already owns the home, sure, recommend that they observe away.

    If one is buying the home from another, and transferring future liability from the other to oneself, then - if the HI thinks is might be a problem ... have the courage to say that and then have it addressed BEFORE your client takes ownership of the home.

    To me, every HI who tries to talk soft and not be flat out truthful with their client, that HI should take ownership of any and all items the HI puts off to 'observe over time' - "Gosh, in a couple of years, that sure did turn into something, and now who is gonna pay for it when I coulda had the owner-at-the-time pay for it? Oh, Mr. HI is gonna pay for it because Mr. HI suggested I put it off."

    I was taught by Mr. Cooke, write hard and talk soft.
    I try to follow the best.
    Having never met Mr. Cooke, but if he teaches, as you said, "write hard and talk soft", then I would not place him as one of the best, not even one of the good ones as the good ones will tell you to talk the same way you right - you don't want to be caught in court saying that you wrote that it was bad but that you told you client it was okay.

    Write the truth, talk the truth, call it like it is for what it is - if the client doesn't like that, at least you can defend yourself in court.

    If writing the truth is "write hard", then you should follow "write hard, talk hard".

    Some HIs are all nice, warm and fuzzy warm in their reports and their talking ... nice, warm and fuzzy things make for good stuffed animals on a child's bed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I'm posting this because I didn't want only one view to be expressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not having wanted to respond to your other posts in this manner ... may I suggest that your opinion of your abilities for doing such has not been displayed to us here.
    A lot of people (especially here) have inflated egos. His ego is a lot smaller than some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    More arrogance and self-righteousness than explaining and educating is what I've seen - and, yes, I have noticed a change from your first posts - albeit a small change - for the better.
    I have not seen that, in fact, I think he has been well mannered.
    I'll go back and read some of his post.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Making yearly observations for what comes up, yes, but for observing something the HI thinks may not be right, no.

    If one already owns the home, sure, recommend that they observe away.

    If one is buying the home from another, and transferring future liability from the other to oneself, then - if the HI thinks is might be a problem ... have the courage to say that and then have it addressed BEFORE your client takes ownership of the home.
    Not that it makes a difference, but, I agree

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    To me, every HI who tries to talk soft and not be flat out truthful with their client, that HI should take ownership of any and all items the HI puts off to 'observe over time' - "Gosh, in a couple of years, that sure did turn into something, and now who is gonna pay for it when I coulda had the owner-at-the-time pay for it? Oh, Mr. HI is gonna pay for it because Mr. HI suggested I put it off."
    .......

    Write the truth, talk the truth, call it like it is for what it is - if the client doesn't like that, at least you can defend yourself in court.

    ......

    Some HIs are all nice, warm and fuzzy warm in their reports and their talking ... nice, warm and fuzzy things make for good stuffed animals on a child's bed.
    I agree
    Basically, I think "Soft reporting" is:
    #1 A lack of knowledge;
    Not knowing what is wrong and/or not knowing how to word it
    #2 Laziness;
    In to much of a hurry to get the report out.
    #3 Cowardice;
    Wants to avoid confrontation with agent/seller/ contractor.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    I know Mr. Cooke personally and have worked with him on committees and have recommended him to home buyers. He is neither lazy, or a soft reporter. He is a true, helpful colleague, highly respected by those that know him and by those who have retained his expertise. He is a caring, true human being, who had a very successful inspection company, who is now retired.

    Mr. Cooke has been a mentor to many an up and coming inspector over the years.

    When he says talk hard write softly, I do believe him to mean write it up as it is, but talk softly in a manner which is not alarmist. This is how I know him. That does not make him less than anyone else or incompetent.

    Other than Robert and myself no one here on this forum has met the man, nor had the opportunity to speak to him personally at many of the seminars, conference which Mr. Cooke has attended over the years. He is no slouch when it comes to helping.

    Thats the Mr. Cooke I know, and I am glad to count him as a friend and a mentor.


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    When he says talk hard write softly, I do believe him to mean write it up as it is, but talk softly in a manner which is not alarmist. This is how I know him.
    Again, the inspector should talk the same way they write - there should not be any reason for any difference.

    One simply cannot "write hard" and then "talk softly" and have the two compatible.

    If the report as alarmist items in it ... so should the talking.

    If the report does not have alarmist items in it ... there is no need to water it down by talking softly.

    You either write and talk the same way, or ... or you are not being true to what is written.

    It is not rocket science and there is no magic powder one can sprinkle a POS which will make it seem like a cream puff. That is simply the way it is.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Again, the inspector should talk the same way they write - there should not be any reason for any difference.

    One simply cannot "write hard" and then "talk softly" and have the two compatible.

    If the report as alarmist items in it ... so should the talking.

    If the report does not have alarmist items in it ... there is no need to water it down by talking softly.

    You either write and talk the same way, or ... or you are not being true to what is written.

    It is not rocket science and there is no magic powder one can sprinkle a POS which will make it seem like a cream puff. That is simply the way it is.
    Jerry

    No that's your opinion and thats not the way it is. And thats where the comparison stops. You don't know the man to come to those conclusion, any more than you've seen his report. So it remains speculation on you part.


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Jerry

    No that's your opinion and thats not the way it is. And thats where the comparison stops. You don't know the man to come to those conclusion, any more than you've seen his report. So it remains speculation on you part.
    Raymond?

    I don't know the man - I said that already.

    But I do know that the inspector needs to talk the same talk as they write.

    Anything less is not being honest with the inspector's client.

    You can try to spin that any way you want, but you can't change the fact that if the talk is different than the writing, then fudging of the writing (dishonesty) is what is taking place.

    Start spinning away ... then go back and re-read your spin and you will see it (if you are being honest about it).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Raymond?

    I don't know the man - I said that already.

    But I do know that the inspector needs to talk the same talk as they write.

    Anything less is not being honest with the inspector's client.

    You can try to spin that any way you want, but you can't change the fact that if the talk is different than the writing, then fudging of the writing (dishonesty) is what is taking place.

    Start spinning away ... then go back and re-read your spin and you will see it (if you are being honest about it).
    Having never met Mr. Cooke, but if he teaches, as you said, "write hard and talk soft", then I would not place him as one of the best, not even one of the good ones as the good ones will tell you to talk the same way you right - you don't want to be caught in court saying that you wrote that it was bad but that you told you client it was okay.
    You may not know him, and you came to a conclusion because you assume you know how he writes up a report based on a tag line.

    There is a big difference between writing it was bad, and then saying it was okay and inspectors will find themselves in trouble, that's not in dispute.

    I write differently then you and there are several ways to get a message across without being an alarmist, that is what makes a good writer, the ability to get the message across without yelling fire.

    I am not spinning anything Jerry, I didn't make wide assumptions as you have, then come here and defend it as the only right method.

    alarmist |əˈlärmist|
    noun
    someone who is considered to be exaggerating a danger and so causing needless worry or panic.
    adjective
    creating needless worry or panic: alarmist rumors.
    DERIVATIVES
    alarmism |-ˌmizəm| noun


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not having wanted to respond to your other posts in this manner ... may I suggest that your opinion of your abilities for doing such has not been displayed to us here.

    More arrogance and self-righteousness than explaining and educating is what I've seen - and, yes, I have noticed a change from your first posts - albeit a small change - for the better.

    Just thought you may like to know to assist in further changes in that same direction.

    I agree Mr. Peck.
    I grew up in the trenches where bravado and voicetress actions made individuals
    I works on large crews and later ran men, at times many. You use a tone of discipline so they understand what had to be done and how to do it and defend your actions as well.
    Many decades, many trade facets.
    This leaves a hard attitude to shake loose.
    Something like your tone Mr. Peak.

    Making yearly observations for what comes up, yes, but for observing something the HI thinks may not be right, no.

    If one already owns the home, sure, recommend that they observe away.

    If one is buying the home from another, and transferring future liability from the other to oneself, then - if the HI thinks is might be a problem ... have the courage to say that and then have it addressed BEFORE your client takes ownership of the home.
    It works both ways.
    Monitoring is a very basic narrative. I tell clients to monitor all foundation cracks.
    Even after injection. It allows water to infiltrate that area.


    To me, every HI who tries to talk soft and not be flat out truthful with their client, that HI should take ownership of any and all items the HI puts off to 'observe over time' - "Gosh, in a couple of years, that sure did turn into something, and now who is gonna pay for it when I coulda had the owner-at-the-time pay for it? Oh, Mr. HI is gonna pay for it because Mr. HI suggested I put it off."

    Did I say I was not truthful
    ? Or did you assume sofy means avoiding the truth. For then you do not know me nor the narrates meaning at all.

    Having never met Mr. Cooke, but if he teaches, as you said, "write hard and talk soft", then I would not place him as one of the best, not even one of the good ones as the good ones will tell you to talk the same way you right - you don't want to be caught in court saying that you wrote that it was bad but that you told you client it was okay.

    Mr. Cooke has mentored hundreds of homies I'd say.
    He also did a home inspection talk for 4 years, has the ears of Ontario fire marshals and other municipal and government officials, is InterNACHI'S leading Canadian authority on home inspections, Holds the Canadian trade mark for the CMI, picked up Nick Gromicko the very first time he landed in Ontario, has been on stage introducing this great industry to thousands of hungry home inspectors, and is the only home inspector in Canada to have an home inspection association , OAHI, officially recognised provincially.
    He is also a very close and personal friend to Raymond Wand that also a most astute free thinking homie and has the provincial governments ear.


    Write the truth, talk the truth, call it like it is for what it is - if the client doesn't like that, at least you can defend yourself in court.
    Yes I understand that.

    If writing the truth is "write hard", then you should follow "write hard, talk hard".
    No sir. You talk soft because there are many very nervous individuals at the home. My client today would be a perfect example.
    During my office post inspection reviews I talk hard and direct.



    Some HIs are all nice, warm and fuzzy warm in their reports and their talking ... nice, warm and fuzzy things make for good stuffed animals on a child's bed.
    Ha ha ha ha. Not many know me as warm and fuzzy. I love to laugh at the comical and cynical side of life.

    Mr. Peck, in all honesty, I will take your assessment to heart.
    And I agree you sure haven't met Mr. Cooke.
    Now that's a shame Mr. Peak.

    As for your assessment of me... is pretty much how I assess you.
    OH YES, and you would not "hold a candle" to Roys ability to discover and narrate.
    HIS WIT IS AMAZING!
    His narrative is short, precise and quick.


    I am being truthful.
    Too bad

    So sad
    laughing monkey.Chuckles.gif

    Now as with most MB, the bullies and self righteous, you and a few others,, push others around due to inability to understand that we all start somewhere and there are all types of levels and degrees of/to intellect.
    Accept them all sir.
    As iron sharpens iron one man sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17

    Sorry for the edits. I can find my glasses again...

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 12-20-2014 at 05:46 PM. Reason: Several spelling errors. Anyone see my glasses?
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I must confuse allot of my clients. Ha ha ha ha

    Mark, I am truly at a loss for words.

    Now I might be wrong here but I thought the objective of a home inspector/home inspection was to inform and educate.
    In my humblest opinion, I feel I have the ability to do so.
    I take the confusion out of the equation. That is called educating.

    I also think all homeowners should be observing their homes on a yearly bases. Predictive/preventative maintenance is the key to success.
    That also takes yearly observations.

    Best regards.

    Ray, I asked myself the same question.
    I guess that is what makes us homies different.
    I was taught by Mr. Cooke, write hard and talk soft.
    I try to follow the best.
    I don't see how you would have educated your client by simply stating that there is a crack in the foundation wall. If you feel the crack is important enough to mention, then tell them why. If you think it is a potential structural concern then call for evaluation by a structural engineer. Telling someone to monitor the crack is not much help. As a structural engineer I have gone out to evaluate significant structural concerns for homeowners. When I asked them what the HI had said to them when they bought the house I have been told that they should monitor the condition. Often they were not told the significance of the condition and that it should have been evaluated before they bought the house by a structural engineer.

    I have never seen a prefabricated concrete foundation walls that looks like the one shown. As for why there is a notch, in my area contractors usually for a pocket like that and then fill it in with concrete after setting the beam.

    Since you still seem to think this could be a concern, do you still think your reporting of the condition would be helpful to your client?


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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Rimmer v. Building Insights Inc., 2013 ONSC 5561 (CanLII)
    Date: 2013-09-09
    Docket:

    [25] Paragraph 2.2 OAHI SOP. Paragraph 2.1 requires an inspector to inspect readily accessible systems and components of homes listed in the Standards of Practice and to report on:

    a. those systems and components inspected which, in the professional opinion of the inspector, are significantly deficient or are near the end of their service lives;

    b. the reason why the system or component is significantly deficient or near the end of its service life;

    c. the inspector's recommendations to correct or monitor the reported deficiency; and

    d. on any systems or components designated for inspection in the Standards which were present at the time of the inspection, but were not inspected and a reason they were not inspected.

    [69] As indicated above, pursuant to the Standards, an inspector is required to report on significantly deficient systems and components and to report the reason why the system or component is significantly deficient and the inspector's recommendations to correct or monitor the reported deficiency. To "report" in this context refers, in my view, to the written report prepared by the inspector for the client. This ensures that any communication respecting a significant deficiency is effectively communicated to the client. It is not sufficient for a home inspector to simply verbally alert his/her client to the existence of a significant deficiency, but rather the Standards require inspector to report, not only on the existence of the deficiency, but also the reason for the deficiency and inspector's recommendation on rectification or monitoring.


  54. #54
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    You may not know him, and you came to a conclusion because you assume you know how he writes up a report based on a tag line.
    Ah-ha ... no I understand why you don't know what you are talking about ...

    *I* responded to what was stated about what he says - which is why I said I don't know the man ... I was responding to what he was reported to have said.

    Raymond, if what he was reported to have said is not what he says, then you need to jump on the person who misquoted him - if that is the case.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  55. #55
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Jerry

    I know what you inferred. Its clear.

    Then you tried to make that stupid arguement that one must be an alarmist.


  56. #56
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Jerry

    I know what you inferred. Its clear.

    Then you tried to make that stupid arguement that one must be an alarmist.
    Raymond,

    You still don't understand what we are talking about.

    I never said that "one must be an alarmist" ... that is, unless they write a report which is alarmist ,,, in which case what they SAY needs to be the same as what the WRITE.

    THAT, my friend, is what I have said and keep saying - WHAT you SAY needs to be the same as WHAT you WRITE.

    If you write alarmist reports ... I guess there is no another options that to say THE SAME THING.

    It does not come down to what one says, it comes down to what one WRITES.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  57. #57
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Jerry

    I apologize I see what you said and meant. So yes you are correct and I am wrong with the alarmist comment.

    Last edited by Raymond Wand; 12-20-2014 at 08:24 PM.

  58. #58
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I don't see how you would have educated your client by simply stating that there is a crack in the foundation wall.

    If you feel the crack is important enough to mention, then tell them why. If you think it is a potential structural concern then call for evaluation by a structural engineer.

    Telling someone to monitor the crack is not much help. As a structural engineer I have gone out to evaluate significant structural concerns for homeowners.

    When I asked them what the HI had said to them when they bought the house I have been told that they should monitor the condition. Often they were not told the significance of the condition and that it should have been evaluated before they bought the house by a structural engineer.

    I have never seen a prefabricated concrete foundation walls that looks like the one shown. As for why there is a notch, in my area contractors usually for a pocket like that and then fill it in with concrete after setting the beam.

    Since you still seem to think this could be a concern, do you still think your reporting of the condition would be helpful to your client?
    Thank you Mark.
    Thank you for you assessment.
    I will express myself better.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
    Call (514) 489-1887 or (514) 441-3732
    Our Motto; Putting information where you need it most, "In your hands.”

  59. #59
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    Default Re: Steel I Beam Supported by 2x6's in foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Jerry

    I apologize I see what you said and meant. So yes you are correct and I am wrong with the alarmist comment.
    Raymond,

    No problem, I was beginning to think that I was not typing what I was thinking - that happens sometimes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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