Thread: Beam cut out for stairs

I've said my say. I'm out!

That screwy post wouldn't fly around here. And look at how it is held to the beam with one bent nail. That's as temporary as it gets.

Originally Posted by David Bertrams

And look at how it is held to the beam with one bent nail. That's as temporary as it gets.

NO nails is temporary ...

ONE nail is permanent ...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

ONE nail is permanent ...

Can we have that in writing, please?

Well we do have this post (pun) with your name on it.
Billy, get out the flame thrower.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Can we have that in writing, please?

Well we do have this post (pun) with your name on it.
Billy, get out the flame thrower.

Anything fastened with ONE ... OR MORE ... nails, staples, screws, glued, etc, is permanent and not intended to be readily and easily moved. If something is HUNG on a nail, staple, screw, glued, etc, then it is intended to be readily and easily moved and is not permanent.

That should be what is referred to as a "no brainer".

Just like that lamp cord / extension cord which is now stapled in place that everyone writes up ...

Of course ... for some ... the phrase "no brainer" ... may have more complex meanings and applications ...

I think Jerry 'nailed' it as usual.

Originally Posted by Chris Weekly

Why are you guys trying to engineer this thing - even if you are an engineer?
As a home inspector, I would call for SE to look at it because it looks wrong.
We don't need to get too carried away with 'this part right' , 'that part maybe' , or 'another part wrong'.

I would like to hear from Sam. By now, Sam surely has prepared and delivered his report. What say you Sam?

Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller

I am a structural engineer, but some guys like to learn what is wrong and what is not and not just automatically refer everything to a structural engineer.

Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller

I do not specify them because of the concerns about only being rated for temporary support. I have approved them in cases where loads are light (i.e. supporting a couple joist ends). Remember, 4x4s or doubled 2x4s do not have ESR reports either.

Thanks Mark for the reply,
I think you reinforce my point that these telescoping columns provide, as you say, "concerns about only being rated for temporary support." More stated than rated temporary by the manufacture (semantics). You have approved them on occasion yet I think that that is more of an exception than the rule, correct me if I am wrong. Which is why the HI or anyone else should raise the question of their use. The HI doesn't get into calculating loads and pulling up load ratings or pull out their micrometers to check wall thickness for the columns to make a determination if the column meets engineering specifications, but looks for the abnormal or atypical and raises questions or concerns.

I agree that learning what is right and what is wrong is what is needed in the HI industry. To many HIs don't have the hands on building experience to recognize right from wrong so they defer quickly to a SE or someone else. Taking a course, getting a license and joining an association does not mean you have the knowledge needed. Learning what is correct or what should be questioned is hopefully what this forum engenders.


Then there is the question of making the temporary column permanent.
Mark, do you require in your specifications for use that the screw adjustment be welded and the plates top and bottom be bolted/attached? Also do yo specify anything special with the horizontal bolts/pins as to make them permanent?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Anything fastened with ONE ... OR MORE ... nails, staples, screws, glued, etc, is permanent and not intended to be readily and easily moved.........

I would agree in the technical sense on one nail makes it attached and therefore may be considered permanent. Though it may not meet any structural requirements.

By example, If you have a bossiness(home) with a 4ft w x 30ft L work bench and it has one screw or nail of any dimension connecting the bench to the structure (building) it is considered attached to that structure and is considered part of the structure. So being attached makes it permanent yet one 6p finish does nothing structurally important. There is the law and then there is reality. There is your definition of permanent "not intended to be readily and easily moved" then there is the real world legal application. First ran into this very concern with a company 40yrs ago that did not want work benches/tables attached to the building for fear that the owner could claim them as part of the property and the IRS claiming them as permanent fixtures. Paranoid maybe, but the lawyers were adamant on their position.

In the OP picture the nail may meet a definition yet it fails in structural/building application value.
I hope that you are not trying to say that a HI should look at that nail and say "permanent connection no issue there". Or maybe I just took your post wrong.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

.
Billy, get out the flame thrower.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Anything fastened with ONE ... OR MORE ... nails, staples, screws, glued, etc, is permanent and not intended to be readily and easily moved. If something is HUNG on a nail, staple, screw, glued, etc, then it is intended to be readily and easily moved and is not permanent.

That should be what is referred to as a "no brainer".

Intended to be "Permanent" like Nails in Decks and Being Permanent like Deck Screws are 2 Different Bologna Sandwiches.

Garry,

You are trying to mix two completely different things: being permanent; being structurally adequate.

One could embed a 1 x 2 in concrete in an attempt to use it as a support post for a floor above.

That 1 x 2 is "permanent".

That 1 x 2 is not structurally adequate ... but it is "permanent".

Two completely different things.

Originally Posted by David Bertrams

That screwy post wouldn't fly around here. And look at how it is held to the beam with one bent nail. That's as temporary as it gets.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

NO nails is temporary ...

ONE nail is permanent ...

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Anything fastened with ONE ... OR MORE ... nails, staples, screws, glued, etc, is permanent and not intended to be readily and easily moved. If something is HUNG on a nail, staple, screw, glued, etc, then it is intended to be readily and easily moved and is not permanent.

That should be what is referred to as a "no brainer".

Just like that lamp cord / extension cord which is now stapled in place that everyone writes up ...

Of course ... for some ... the phrase "no brainer" ... may have more complex meanings and applications ...

Jerry,
I know how you like to try and use a dictionary to support a position that you have taken but in this real world application, the nail by a technical definition makes the column permanent yet no AHJ, would say that the nail has any value in permanently fixing the column to the wood contact nor is it correct, adequate nor acceptable.

Your position is almost as reasonable as saying that the nail can be easily removed with a pair of pliers or a hammer. Easily as by a 4yr old being able to remove with little effort and therefore is temporary.

So you take the position that this column is permanent and adequate with no reason to question the installation nor its use. The nail meets all requirements for an installation of a column.

"....not intended to be readily and easily moved." with your logic then you will have to clarify with test data to support at what point the PSI of force or torque the nail has to withstand to pass the "not readily and easily moved". So bring on your supporting data or sources for this nail and installation.

Oh by the way I still have the nagging curiosity. How many column of this type have you seen over the years that have been approved as a permanent installation with or without a bent nail holding them in place???

Garry,

You are yet again trying to combine apples and oranges.

The nail does not require a structural value - THE POST DOES.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Garry,

You are yet again trying to combine apples and oranges.

The nail does not require a structural value - THE POST DOES.

The nail is wrong and the post is wrong. You can look at them separately or you can look at them together. Either way it is wrong. Unless you can provide documentation that it is otherwise. Don't try to make it up out of sack clothe and ashes. Provide me with one case that you have seen this used and AHJ approved.

Heck you can even use you bootlegger basement dug out of corral if that is applicable.

Which takes me back to:

Oh by the way I still have the nagging curiosity. How many column of this type have you seen over the years that have been approved as a permanent installation with or without a bent nail holding them in place???

Now you are changing horses in mid stream ... no wonder that horse died.

Being permanent or not was what we were discussing.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

NO nails is temporary ...

ONE nail is permanent ...

Permanent is not always permanent. Semantics, yes. While the nail in one sense make it permanent it does not make it correctly permanent.


Jerry, The inquiring minds are still asking:
How many column of this type (OP pict) have you seen over the years that have been approved as a permanent installation with or without a bent nail holding them in place???

Maybe the correct question is: How many columns have you seen and/or do you look at them??

The questions are not to beat you over the head, but to understand what practical experiences you have had that you can draw from.

Garry,

Not to beat you over the head, but to understand your experiences in dealing with reading the posts in this thread ... I have already provided the answers to your questions ... more than once.

With regard to the suitability of those columns for that use, you would need to absorb and understand Mark's answers.

I don't think that is was mentioned but, shouldn't that steel column end bearing steel plate extend across the full width of the beam?

It does here where we keep our windows closed and some may speak French.