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  1. #1
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    Default Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Brand new construction. It looks like somebody drilled these holes to route the water line for the sprinkler system. 18 ceiling joist drilled this way and not in a straight line either. Every hole they drilled was well less than 2 inches from the bottom of the joists with some being being cut within 1/4" or less of the joists. Their repair was to nail a board to each joist and extend it anywhere from 8-12" beyond the holes.







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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    When the hole is less than two inches from the edge it would be considered a notch. Notches are permitted to be D/6 maximum and D/3 max. in length within the outer third of the joist span.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Vineyard View Post
    When the hole is less than two inches from the edge it would be considered a notch. Notches are permitted to be D/6 maximum and D/3 max. in length within the outer third of the joist span.
    Can anybody else provide clarification or verification on this?

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Can anybody else provide clarification or verification on this?
    see page 2 for chart https://engineering.purdue.edu/~jliu..._Guide_A11.pdf

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Can anybody else provide clarification or verification on this?
    From the IRC: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R502.8.1 Sawn lumber. - - Notches in solid lumber joists, rafters and beams shall not exceed one-sixth of the depth of the member, shall not be longer than one-third of the depth of the member and shall not be located in the middle one-third of the span. Notches at the ends of the member shall not exceed one-fourth the depth of the member. The tension side of members 4 inches (102 mm) or greater in nominal thickness shall not be notched except at the ends of the members. The diameter of holes bored or cut into members shall not exceed one-third the depth of the member. Holes shall not be closer than 2 inches (51 mm) to the top or bottom of the member, or to any other hole located in the member. Where the member is also notched, the hole shall not be closer than 2 inches (51 mm) to the notch.

    The code does not say to address a hole which is less than 2" from the edge as a notch, but if one were to do that, "the notch" would be the size of the hole plus the amount of space between the hole and the edge of the wood - i.e., a 2" hole 1-1/2" from the edge would be (using the notch premise) a 3-1/2" deep notch. That would mean the member wold have to be at least 21" deep for the member to not be over-notched ... and 21" deep is one heck of a piece of sawn lumber (not glulam, not engineered wood in any way, plain sawn lumber is what this applies to).

    By the way, "holes bored or cut" means "bored" with a drill bit, could be twist or spade, and "cut" means with a hole saw ... not with a Sawzall or other such tool.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Thanks guys. Looks like the code is open to some interpretation here but I'm going to stick with my call that the repair is inadequate and should be completed in a manner consistent those seen when a joist is cracked or damaged in some other way. In this situation, I would have been looking for the sister to extend at least 3feet beyond the cutout/damaged area, have the sister secured with carriage bolts or lag bolts, and having bearing support on the mid span beam due to it's close proximity to the mid span beam.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    There is no prescriptive repair for this situation that I am aware of and an engineer would be needed to design an appropriate repair.
    The only way I would sign off on a none engineered repair would be a new member sistered from bearing to bearing in such a way that the original joists strength was no longer needed.
    Chances are the repairs they did would be sufficient but "I" would not be making that call since I am not an engineer and am not taking on the liability.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    There is no prescriptive repair for this situation that I am aware of and an engineer would be needed to design an appropriate repair.
    The only way I would sign off on a none engineered repair would be a new member sistered from bearing to bearing in such a way that the original joists strength was no longer needed.
    Chances are the repairs they did would be sufficient but "I" would not be making that call since I am not an engineer and am not taking on the liability.
    Jim, I told the buyer that while it is likely that nothing will ever move as a result of these cutouts and inadequate repairs, it is still wrong and that any condition he accepts when he buys the house then becomes his to pay for when he goes to sell and the new buyers are not as accepting of the condition.

    He has since bailed on the house. This ceiling joist issue was only one of many others. Check out these pics of the grading at the side and rear of the house and the results.









    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Don't you just love new construction?

    How stupid do you have to be to install an A/C like that.

    Builders build homes for a life span of a few decades (if that), not centuries like in the old days.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    The opinion on the hole considered as a notch when less than 2 inches from the edge can be sourced from AF & PA training module;

    "As long as the hole is in the middle of the joist – in the neutral axis – it should cause no problems. However, as the hole is moved to the edge it begins to act like a notch by interrupting the wood fiber in areas where the stresses are highest. The code is silent on this situation, but our recommendations are that if holes are necessary in the mid-third of the span they shouldn’t be allowed anywhere but along the neutral axis."

    http://www.awc.org/helpoutreach/ecourses/MAT105/MAT105eCourseV09-2007.pdf

    Hope this is satisfactory.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Chinook View Post
    Don't you just love new construction?

    How stupid do you have to be to install an A/C like that.

    Builders build homes for a life span of a few decades (if that), not centuries like in the old days.
    I don't think the condenser was installed that way Bill. I believe the issue is grading and drainage. The picture I posted of the cracked and separated AC condensate drain line and the underground stand pipe pulled down away from the downspout was to illustrate how much the grade level has sunken in that area with the yard sloped towards the house. The left-hand side and rear yard is sloped directly toward the left-hand rear corner of the house and that torrent of surface water appears to have made the ground settle and drop and make the condenser out of level.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    As of today I have decided not to do new construction inspections (maybe I'll change my mind, but I hope not). I get tired of looking at crap and then having the builder say its ok.

    Today someone called for a new construction inspection, with the footing inspection scheduled for next week. Its been mostly sub-freezing for weeks, and we got 6-8 inches of snow today. I don't know if they dug the hole or not, but next week its supposed to be in the 40's and 50's next week. I can see showing up to a muddy mess and telling the client they should not pour the footings on mud. The builder will say its fine and so may the building inspector. That would be the start of a long process of wasting my time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As of today I have decided not to do new construction inspections (maybe I'll change my mind, but I hope not). I get tired of looking at crap and then having the builder say its ok.

    Today someone called for a new construction inspection, with the footing inspection scheduled for next week. Its been mostly sub-freezing for weeks, and we got 6-8 inches of snow today. I don't know if they dug the hole or not, but next week its supposed to be in the 40's and 50's next week. I can see showing up to a muddy mess and telling the client they should not pour the footings on mud. The builder will say its fine and so may the building inspector. That would be the start of a long process of wasting my time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As of today I have decided not to do new construction inspections (maybe I'll change my mind, but I hope not). I get tired of looking at crap and then having the builder say its ok.

    Today someone called for a new construction inspection, with the footing inspection scheduled for next week. Its been mostly sub-freezing for weeks, and we got 6-8 inches of snow today. I don't know if they dug the hole or not, but next week its supposed to be in the 40's and 50's next week. I can see showing up to a muddy mess and telling the client they should not pour the footings on mud. The builder will say its fine and so may the building inspector. That would be the start of a long process of wasting my time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As of today I have decided not to do new construction inspections (maybe I'll change my mind, but I hope not). I get tired of looking at crap and then having the builder say its ok.

    Today someone called for a new construction inspection, with the footing inspection scheduled for next week. Its been mostly sub-freezing for weeks, and we got 6-8 inches of snow today. I don't know if they dug the hole or not, but next week its supposed to be in the 40's and 50's next week. I can see showing up to a muddy mess and telling the client they should not pour the footings on mud. The builder will say its fine and so may the building inspector. That would be the start of a long process of wasting my time.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    As of today I have decided not to do new construction inspections (maybe I'll change my mind, but I hope not). I get tired of looking at crap and then having the builder say its ok.

    Today someone called for a new construction inspection, with the footing inspection scheduled for next week. Its been mostly sub-freezing for weeks, and we got 6-8 inches of snow today. I don't know if they dug the hole or not, but next week its supposed to be in the 40's and 50's next week. I can see showing up to a muddy mess and telling the client they should not pour the footings on mud. The builder will say its fine and so may the building inspector. That would be the start of a long process of wasting my time.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I don't think the condenser was installed that way Bill. I believe the issue is grading and drainage. The picture I posted of the cracked and separated AC condensate drain line and the underground stand pipe pulled down away from the downspout was to illustrate how much the grade level has sunken in that area with the yard sloped towards the house. The left-hand side and rear yard is sloped directly toward the left-hand rear corner of the house and that torrent of surface water appears to have made the ground settle and drop and make the condenser out of level.
    Interesting, I didn't think about that.

    Still, the building practices are extremely poor. I bet the builder is going to regrade it and call it a day, maybe pour some concrete and try to show that he really cares.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    California does not allow plumber's tape on plastic waste lines (or heating ducts, for that matter). I'm assuming the local Pennsylvania AHJ inspector has no problem with it.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by CoronadoBruin View Post
    California does not allow plumber's tape on plastic waste lines (or heating ducts, for that matter). I'm assuming the local Pennsylvania AHJ inspector has no problem with it.
    Looks like it was ( not very well) glued together to me.
    .


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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    There was no plumbers tape on that line. It was actually glued together with PVC pipe cement/adhesive. It was the sinking grade that pulled the line down and away and created the break. There is a 7"+ separation in that pipe. That is showing how much those grades sunk. The down force put on that pipe with the sinking grades pulling on it would have made a copper pipe break eventually.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    I did several new construction inspections in Colorado about 11 years ago. Keep in mind that at that time, Colorado had no building construction licensing system in place--anyone with a dog and a pickup truck could call himself/herself a building contractor. Anyway, both places were on the market for more than $500,000 (probably close to a million in today's money). The first place's brand new deck had many of the timber columns overhanging the edges of the circular concrete footings by more than half of their widths, while the elephants' paws at the bottom of the concrete hadn't been trimmed to match the Sonotubes' diameters (based on using my mirror to peer down inside, just before the pour, as it was just around the corner from where I lived). Based on examining concrete waste piles, it didn't appear to have any rock in it, either--more like a mortar mix, with just coarse sand.

    But the second place was a classic--the builder admonished me (as he opened the place up for me, before leaving) that he only did quality work, and that I wouldn't find ANY construction mistakes. Ha-ha. The mistakes list ranged from multiple exposed shingle nails ("shiners"), to incorrect shingle overlap, to missing framing fasteners in an entire crawl space pony wall (just one nail at each end of each stud), to an unsecured dishwasher (tipped forward when door opened), to a kitchen hot air register that was never hooked up to the main plenum. Colorado winters can be cold, but the "builder" apparently wasn't too concerned.

    Last edited by BridgeMan; 03-06-2015 at 09:38 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    I may have replied to the wrong post but I was speaking of two of the photos in the original post showing plumber's tape as a support for the PVC waste line.

    Crazy amount of settling, though; wow. Someone didn't want to break out the compactor.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by CoronadoBruin View Post
    I may have replied to the wrong post but I was speaking of two of the photos in the original post showing plumber's tape as a support for the PVC waste line.

    Crazy amount of settling, though; wow. Someone didn't want to break out the compactor.
    Oh, you're talking about the flexible metal straps they used. Yeah, that was wrong too.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Oops....oops again....oh boy....there's another....whoops again.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Vineyard View Post
    When the hole is less than two inches from the edge it would be considered a notch. Notches are permitted to be D/6 maximum and D/3 max. in length within the outer third of the joist span.

    The way *I* look at it, whether they are permitted or not- if they made THAT many "Oops" obviously a moron did the work so why risk it. This is what happens when you hire non-expert help. My sister has "a guy" (that's what she calls him- her "guy") he gets paid in cash. He does not speak English very well. He helped build her house and he also works on things on the interiors. He literally bolted a microwave oven to the wall, using old kitchen cabinet door screws- by running the screws THROUGH the microwaves chassis- in to the wall! What the...??? He "built" a French Door in her son's bedroom- you can get a breeze blowing through your hair just standing outside the frame in the Phoenix AZ heat- all the AC air blows through the cracks. Her AC unit- that's another story. You turn it on and the whole house gets brown out. Shaking my head- please hire EXPERIENCED workers. Can't wait til she tries to sell that house and it won't pass inspection. I "told her so" but she won't listen.


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