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  1. #1
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    Default Framing question

    Is toe nailing acceptable in this case or does a tie need to be used in the first two photos. I was questioning if these support anything or if they were simply used to support the ridge during construction. Also is a plate needed at the ridge in the remaining photos. It just looked like a mess. They jammed a piece of osb in there and then nailed it together. Any thoughts

    Mat

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Healdsburg Ca
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Hey Mat. Im not sure of your area codes. but it look like a poor job just the same. As to the center 2x4 post when i was a young man i did not set temp supports up like that. and if i did do a temp i took it down after the roof was set.

    May be some one can add to this.

    Best

    Ron


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
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    Massachusetts
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    Default Re: Framing question

    It looks like there's conventional framing overframed on top of manufactured trusses. Theoretically, there's no vertical load on the 2x4 "post" under the conventionally framed ridge, but in reality there is some load. This load is being placed as a concentrated load on the manufactured truss. The truss was likely not designed for that. More information regarding the truss design, etc. would be necessary before the recommending removal of the post.


  4. #4
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    Mar 2007
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    Vancouver - Canada
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    Default Re: Framing question

    it looks like they've changed the original roof line / profile on the fly with poorly framed conventional lumber. I'd probably write it up as further evaluation needed. What is the roof load ? Is it a heavy wet snow region ? Is the roof covering asphalt shingles or concrete tiles (although concrete tiles usually have spaced sheathing).


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Framing question

    My thoughts are, based on what is shown in the photo, that at a minimum the vertical supports should be turned 90 degrees to align bearing to bearing (the 2x4 is turned to align with the top chord of the truss and the ridge, not perpendicular to them).

    As installed, it creates shear forces which could cause splitting of the 2x4 verticals.

    The 3rd, 4th, and last photo are of the same area, and there should be some support connecting the ridge to the top chord of the truss. Is there? Hard to tell, but the 4th photo seems to show some type of shim (OSB?) and nails to the top chord??? Whether or not it is properly nailed is another question.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Evan Grugett's Avatar
    Evan Grugett Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Trusses should not be field altered or cut under any circumstances! I would not be offering specific corrections, or discussing types of forces or load paths in the report (unless I had engineering credentials to do so). A structural engineer specialist, or an engineer from the truss manufacturer, should be brought in to analyze the conditions and to specify the repairs. As it appears that this roof framing was altered and added onto, was this done as part of an addition/alterations to the house that requires permitting and municipal approvals? You should advise the client to obtain any of those sign offs that are required by code.



  7. #7
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Evan,

    I may be missing it, but I don't see any field altered trusses in those photos???

    Please advise.

    Yes, you are correct, trusses should not be field modified, and broken or damaged trusses need to be repaired in a manner in which the truss engineer (or other engineer) specifies in an engineering letter.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
    Brandon Chew Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Mat,

    The short and more general answer is that they have taken an engineered framing system (roof trusses) and some amateur framers (because it is not the work of a "professional") have cobbed some conventional framing onto it. The whole system (trusses and the conventional framing being supported by it) needs to be engineered to do what they are asking it to do. There should be plans, permits, code inspections for this work on file ... if not, I'd recommend that a structural engineer evaluate the roof framing system and design repairs.

    There's really not enough info in your post and photos to do a proper evaluation. From what I can see in the first two photos, one big thing jumped out at me. There does not seem to be anything tying the tails of the opposing conventional rafters together. That would make the ridge in the photos a structural ridge, and those support posts necessary to keep the roof from collapsing. As such, the posts should be turned 90 degrees and be full bearing on the ridge and truss as Jerry pointed out. An even bigger problem with those posts is that they are in poor locations -- you don't take a distributed load from the roof deck, turn it into a point load (via the posts) and then transfer that point load to the top chord of a truss without having appropriate web members of the truss directly under that point load to carry the load to an appropriate support below. I can only see one web in the photos -- it's near the front post -- and it is probably not adequate for the conditions, as created in the field, by the conventional framing that was added above it.

    Brandon


  9. #9
    Evan Grugett's Avatar
    Evan Grugett Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    Jerry,

    The fact that the trusses are now carrying a "new" conventionally framed roof system is enough alteration for me.

    Evan


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan Grugett View Post
    Jerry,

    The fact that the trusses are now carrying a "new" conventionally framed roof system is enough alteration for me.

    Evan
    Evan,

    That's not an "alteration" *to the truss*. (Unless, of course, Brandon says differently. )

    However, as Brandon pointed out, it does change the loading on the truss top chord.

    MANY truss installations will have some conventional framing added to them on the site, and the same is specified in the truss drawings ... which we do not have privy to. Thus, we cannot simply state it is incorrect.

    That said, though, there are many "obvious" issues with the way 'what was done' 'was done', an 'that' can be stated by the HI.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Evan Grugett's Avatar
    Evan Grugett Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    OK, it has just altered (increased) the loading on the trusses.


  12. #12
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    Mar 2008
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    Park City, Utah
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Thanks for all the info. We do get some extreme loads around here and this winter was one of th worst in the last 20 years. If it didn't fail then it is not likely going to, I know that does not make it right. I wrote it up as futher evaluation. It just looked like a mess but the photos don't do it justice. Thanks again.

    Mat


  13. #13
    Ryan Stouffer's Avatar
    Ryan Stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Framing question

    maybe you should wear a tie when you are nailing your toes. have you ever tried that. some people swear by it!


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Healdsburg, CA
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    Default Re: Framing question

    That roof framing mess looks to me like a contributer to the expression, "wood butcher."

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  15. #15
    Roy Summerville's Avatar
    Roy Summerville Guest

    Cool Re: Framing question

    It looks like a typical Richmond Home thats there type of framing but it is wrong. The support will not carry the weight over time and thats our job, Not only to look at the house for today But for long term. Roy Summerville
    Appraise-It/Inspect-It Consultants of Colorado,Inc


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Framing question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Stouffer View Post
    maybe you should wear a tie when you are nailing your toes. have you ever tried that. some people swear by it!
    .
    Does it work better than this?
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