Water level (Manometer) - InspectionNews

Martin lehman · #1 (**permalink**) 05-22-2007, 09:02 PM

I want to start providing manometer readings (surveys??) for my clients.

How many of you guys provide this service??
What type of water level do yo use???
How do you report your findings???
Do you use a separate contract and fee or do you integrate the survey into your home inspection???
What do you charge extra??
How do you disclaim that the survey has nothing to do with engineering??? Do you call it a "survey" or is that a bad idea???

Thanks

Jerry Peck · #2 (**permalink**) 05-22-2007, 09:30 PM

1) Why?

2) For what purpose?

3) Comparing what to what?

4) Discard the water level, it tells you nothing other than what is level.

5) You can buy pressure measuring devices which use water (i.e., the real things, to read inches of water column), however, you are better off to buy a manometer, dual type, so you can measure (as an example) the pressure on each side of a door at the same time, inside/outside at the same time, etc., to obtain a pressure difference.

6) I have one.

7) I have r-a-r-e-l-y_u-s-e-d_i-t, and only then for special purpose inspections.

8) I would stay away from them unless you know how to use them (maybe you do?).

9) I would keep them out of, and away from, your home inspections.

10) If there seems to be a problem ... what type of problems are you trying to investigate?

Bruce Breedlove · #3 (**permalink**) 05-22-2007, 10:16 PM

Martin,

To me a manometer is a device used to measure the pressure (of gases) or pressure differential (e.g. indoor vs. and outdoor). Is this what you are considering using? I don't see a great need for this device in a typical home inspection.

If you are doing energy audits and using a blower door then the pressure differential (indoor vs. outdoor) would be very important. Also, if you are doing radon testing and find elevated levels of radon the pressure differential would be important because a house with a significant negative pressure may be drawing in radon in through the foundation.

If you are talking about a water level to measure levelness of floors a good one is the Zip Level Pro-2000. It costs around $800 (last time I checked). It is on my wish list but I don't have a pressing need for it.

You can measure how much out of level a floor (or beam, etc.) is BUT unless you know it was originally perfectly level you cannot say exactly how much it has moved.

For example, let's say you check the four corners of a rectangular house. The right-rear corner is 2" lower than the left-front corner. Can you say the RR corner has dropped 2"? (I can't & I wouldn't.) All you can tell your client is that the RR corner is presently 2" lower than the LF corner. If you can monitor the house over time you should be able to tell if the house is actively moving. A year down the road if you measure a differential of 3" you could report with reasonable certainty that the house is moving (either the RR corner is dropping or the LF corner is rising or both).

You might want to check with your state's Board of Registration for Engineers and find out if measuring or monitoring the levelness of floors, etc. is considered practicing engineering. If so, unless you are a registered engineer, you should find something else to add to your tool bag.

Jerry McCarthy · #4 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 08:18 AM

Martin
Please listen to Jerry P as he has given you excellent advice. I know you are a member of CREIA and should you elect to employ a Manometer for your inspections you are going far beyond CREIA’s SOPs, nah, in fact every home inspection SOP I’ve ever heard of. The best tools by far for home inspectors are their eyes, ears, nose, hands, and feet. A 1” steel ball-bearing, golf ball or queue ball also works just fine for checking out of level floors.

Martin lehman · #5 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 08:36 AM

I am planning on using the manometer to measure how out of level a foundation is - basically as you have explained it Bruce.

I fully understand that a single measurement is actually not very meaningful and can be misleading as far as finding out if a foundation is moving. For me and I think “home inspectors” in general, it is more of a matter of finding out how level the foundation is and how large the variance is between two points.
For example, if there is a “large” difference of 4 inches between two points 40ft apart, that may not be to a buyers liking and is an indicator of possible movement (along with other signs of course) or the foundation may not have moved at all and it could just be horrible workmanship on the part of the contractor who laid the foundation (pretty unlikely). Either way a 4 inch variance over 40ft is not up to generally accepted standards, not too many people want to pay full price for that.

There are a few inspectors out here who use this device as "home inspector" and not as "engineer". Maybe I am wrong but for the example above I don’t think it is crossing the line from “inspector” to “engineer”.

Here is a first choice for myself WatrLevel - Home Page
And another - quite pricy for basically the same thing Pro-Level Manometer Overview - Function, Uses, Advantages, Accuracy

Jim Luttrall · #6 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 09:41 AM

Martin, I purchased a water level a couple of months back in a moment of weakness for about $300 and have never used it on an inspection yet. I don't think it will ever pay for itself.
If a house is moving, there will be signs in the walls, doors, etc. and measuring how much it is out of level is not really that beneficial, since there is no baseline to compare to.
Save your money until you see the need and develop a viable marketing plan.
That said, send me an email if you are interested in a neat little toy

Jim

Jerry McCarthy · #7 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 09:44 AM

Martin
What don't you understand about CREIA's Standards of Practice or generally nationally accepted practices of the home inspection profession?? Hopefully you will not be seeing me or several other CREIA members who do EW work down the road if you insist on being foolish.
If you want to provide this as a separate service, that’s fine, but you are clearly out of line performing this type of evaluation as a home inspector. Somehow I’ve got to believe you are having some fun with a post like this?
(at least I hope so)

Rick Hurst · #8 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 12:19 PM

Martin,

Do you own a moisture meter?

Scott Patterson · #9 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 12:39 PM

As others have said, this can be a very slippery slope for a home inspector. I have heard these surveys called "Foundation Level Surveys" . They are usually used as a "lost leader" type service. In other words, you don't charge for this service. It is to make your service appear to be more of a value. The major problem is that it will increase your liability ten fold or better.

With a level survey you are teetering on the edge of an engineering function and if you are not a PE this could cause you problems down the road. Before I ever attempted to provide a service like this I would get the blessings from the State PE License Board.

Bob Harper · #10 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 03:50 PM

terminology: you are referring to a "water level" and not a manometer, though the principle is similar.

Just curious:
What is the industry standard on how to conduct this measurement?
What is the calibration procedure?
Storage of the equipment? Operating temps?
Temp. compensation?
What liquids/ dyes are acceptable?
What slope over what distance is acceptable or unacceptable?
How do you measure for an undulation or "belly" btw points?
How do you account for unstable soil conditions?
What is the accepted standard deviation for this measurement according to AIA Stds.?
What are you using for reference points? The finished floor, top of foundation wall, soffit, etc?
Who is requiring this measurement?
Does your liabiliy insurance cover you for this sort of measuring/ testing?
With one person, who holds the other end?
Do you read the top or bottom of the meniscus?

Jerry Peck · #11 (**permalink**) 05-23-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin lehman

I am planning on using the manometer to measure how out of level a foundation is - basically as you have explained it Bruce.

A manometer is for measuring pressure.

A water level is used to measure level.

Referring to a 'water level manometer' is not only referring to something which does not exist, but had us all confused and wondering which you wanted to do.

Drop the term 'manometer' and leave it in the trash.

Replace it with the term 'water level'.

Two entirely different things for two entirely different uses - not related in any way, shape, or form.

Bruce Breedlove · #12 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 12:00 PM

What Jerry said.

Jack Feldmann · #13 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 02:49 PM

I have used a water level when I was building a long retaining wall in my yard. Not a fancy one, just a long plastic tube with water in it. Now way for me to measure any diff.

As far as using something to check for foundation level, I would use something else. Something similar to a survey tool probably.

That said, I don't think I would offer this as a service unless I was qualified to do so, such as an engineer or surveyor.

That said, I have been on many jobs (in CA) where the foundation contractor was using a laser transit to set his forms. I'm sure he probably wasn't an engineer - and I'm not sure that ONLY an engineer would be qualified to use those tools. Checking a foundation for level is not exactly rocket science, and probably doesn't require advanced mathmatics or calculations to determine IF it's level, or for that matter, how much OUT of level it might be.

As far as "exceeding" SOP from any organization is something that just about every inspector does on a daily basis. In fact, the ASHI SOP actually allows inspectors to include other inspection services. SOP 2.3. "These SOP are not intended to limit inspectors from:
A. including other inspection services, systems or components in addition to those required by these SOP".

Just my take - your mileage may differ
JF

imported_John Smith · #14 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 05:20 PM

Water level manometers certainly do exist. I frequently see pressures measured in inches of mercury (Hg) or inches of water. The beauty of it is you can make your own manometer quite easy and use inches of water column if that is how you would like to measure pressure.

I wouldnt use it for a home inspection though. Its great for measuring extremely low pressures (less than 1 bar). Mercury measurements are much more precise though when you get down to the RCH.

Jerry Peck · #15 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imported_John Smith

Water level manometers certainly do exist.

NO, you are using an incorrect term.

They are NOT "water LEVEL manometers"

You DO measure pressure with them (but they are not water levels), and, in fact, you can read "inches of water column" directly off them.

For one example, go here: Manometers

Or here: Measurement of Pressure With The Manometer

Or here: Gas Laws: Pressure

They *are not* "water levels" though.

Bruce Breedlove · #16 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

I have used a water level when I was building a long retaining wall in my yard. Not a fancy one, just a long plastic tube with water in it. Now way for me to measure any diff.

There IS a way to measure elevation difference with a water level. Use a tape measure. Set up your water level and measure from the water level to your reference point on one end and from the water level to the target point.

Example: Set up your water level with the water level (the surface of the water) above both points. Measure the height of water level above the reference point (e.g., 12" at the left-front corner) and above the target point (e.g., 14" at the right-rear corner). Subtracting the second measurement from the first gives you the elevation differential. In this example it would be 12" - 14" = -2". The right-rear corner is 2" lower than the left-front corner (a negative dimension indicates the point is lower than the reference point).

I used water levels when I built houses. They are good for rough measurements for things like Jack's retaining wall.

The water level I used was nothing more than clear tubes that screwed on each end of a garden hose. That meant that I could measure elevation between two points that were quite a ways apart by using two or three garden hoses.

Jerry Peck · #17 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

The water level I used was nothing more than clear tubes that screwed on each end of a garden hose. That meant that I could measure elevation between two points that were quite a ways apart by using two or three garden hoses.

I made a water level out of 100 feet of of 1/4" vinyl tubing like you can get at the big box stores. I put a water/anti freeze mix in it and kept it coiled up in a 5 gallon bucket. Easy to store and carry, never needed water (was already in there), easy to use, take each end out (I had it coiled up with 10 feet loose for the 'fixed reference point' Bruce was talking about) and the other end just pulled out as much as I needed.

I kept the ends crimped closed with those spring Pony clamps, the small ones.

The anti freeze not only kept the water from turning yucky (technical term), it also made the level easier to read.

If I needed to go more than 100 feet, I would set the bucket in the center and measure both ways, I could reach 200 feet that way.