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Thread: TJI "BIG HOLES"

  1. #1
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default TJI "BIG HOLES"

    I think I have a problem here! I don't have the mfg. specs but the tabels I do have show these holes can't be more than half of the depth if I am reading it right.

    Mike, Jerry (either one), anybody....

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"


  3. #3
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    do you know the depth of the joists and the size of the holes?


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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    do you know the depth of the joists and the size of the holes?
    I did't measure but the joist looks like 18" and the holes go from flange to flange.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    I do not see a 18" tji but on a 16" beam a 13" hole can be cut and that will take out most if not all of the web.Now the next 13" hole must be at least 26' from the edge of the 1st hole.Diax2=26"[edge to edge].You really need to take some measurements


  6. #6
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    "6028 Commercial TJI Installation Sheet" shows maximum 11" round hole in a 18" joist. That hole can't be more than 6'9" from the bearing point as well as other restrictions. Under special considerations it has a note that holes can be located anywhere in the web but must leave 1/8" of web minimum.

    I'm thinking I will turn this over to the guy with the big sheep skin.


  7. #7
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    is this a residential or commercial building?


  8. #8
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    and do you have a link to that reference on commercial installation


  9. #9
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    http://www.redbuilt.com/images/docs/COM-2002.pdf

    This is the commercial link. Weyerhaeuser sold their commercial I level division to the above company.


  10. #10
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Michael,
    Sorry, had to take the wife to garage sales. It is residental but I don't think there is a great deal of difference in allowable holes.

    Now I have to go take gov. mandated continuing ed class... what a waste of good money .


  11. #11
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    There is a big difference.Bigger holes are allowed on residential construction.Live loads are greater in commercial buildings.
    Did your wife buy a bicycle?


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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    There is a big difference.Bigger holes are allowed on residential construction.Live loads are greater in commercial buildings.
    Did your wife buy a bicycle?
    Bicycle! You must be kidding... she's looking for a rickshaw .

    This link shows 13" hole in a 16" joist. That means there has to be at least 1/8" web top and bottom. Don't understand the heavier built joist requiring greater distance form support to edge of hole though . I'll go give it another look and make some measurements.


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    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"


  14. #14
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    "Bicycle! You must be kidding... she's looking for a rickshaw"

    that was good


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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Those TJIs are compromised.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  16. #16
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    why are they compromised?


  17. #17
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    As a rule, you can make a circular cut from flange to flange in the center of the span. As you move towards the ends of the TJI the size restrictions become greater. Since those TJIs have two full diameter cuts they exceed manuf specs.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  18. #18
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    "For simple span (5' minimum), uniformly loaded joists used in residential applications, one maximum
    size round hole may be
    located at the center of the joist span provided
    that no other holes occur in the joist."

    The above quote is from the manufacturers specs


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    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Measured I' beam is 14" with a 13.5" wide oval hole and flange to flange vertically. The edge of the hole is 3'8" from the nearest support end.

    The tables I have limit the hole size to 11" for any 14" I' beam. Found one marking on one I' beam, "SolidStart (then blurred) in partnership with ABITIBIBOWATER". Also this stamp on several of the flanges.

    Other than finding that Abitibowater has filed for court protection I can't find anything on the I' joist.

    Along with what Michael and Eric have posted, I think I will stick with the plan of further investigation by licensed engineer.

    If anyone has other thoughts post them soon as I have to write report.

    Thanks
    Vern

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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Are those site cut holes or were they cut at the factory?

    They look awfully symetrical and similar to be site cut. Bet they were factory cut to allow for HVAC and are just fine.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Are those site cut holes or were they cut at the factory?

    They look awfully symetrical and similar to be site cut. Bet they were factory cut to allow for HVAC and are just fine.
    Site cut as far as I can tell! Oval and skinning the edge of the flange, sometimes on the top sometimes on the bottom and sometimes both.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    They do look pretty darn good for site cut now that I think about it. No pencil marks either?

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  23. #23
    Bob Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Just use this as a guide and there won't be any more speculation...

    IBC-Building...
    2308.8.2.1 Engineered wood products. Cuts, notches and holes bored in trusses, structural composite lumber, structural glue-laminated members or I-joists are not permitted except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional.

    And it is repeated again in...

    2308.10.7 Engineered wood products. Prefabricated wood I-joists, structural glued-laminated timber and structural composite lumber shall not be notched or drilled except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional.

    Who says the people who write the code don't studder...
    If the same thing is written in the code... it's probable required... If it's written in the code TWICE... I guess they mean it...

    Looks like the contractor needs to know who the EoR (Engineer of Record)is and how to get hold of him for a letter...

    I wouldn't make a judgement call untill there's a sign-off...


  24. #24
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Phoenix View Post
    Just use this as a guide and there won't be any more speculation...

    IBC-Building...
    2308.8.2.1 Engineered wood products. Cuts, notches and holes bored in trusses, structural composite lumber, structural glue-laminated members or I-joists are not permitted except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional.

    And it is repeated again in...

    2308.10.7 Engineered wood products. Prefabricated wood I-joists, structural glued-laminated timber and structural composite lumber shall not be notched or drilled except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional.

    Who says the people who write the code don't studder...
    If the same thing is written in the code... it's probable required... If it's written in the code TWICE... I guess they mean it...

    Looks like the contractor needs to know who the EoR (Engineer of Record)is and how to get hold of him for a letter...

    I wouldn't make a judgement call untill there's a sign-off...
    Thanks Bob, along with the observation that the holes may have been factory cut, I am going to request a letter from the mfg. or further evaluation by engineer if one can not be produced.


  25. #25
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    The holes look site cut and also why 2 large holes?1st row a mistake or was it for a really big electrical cable?


  26. #26
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    The only manufactured holes I know of are the knockouts. The holes in Vern's photos were cut after market.

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    Eric Barker, ACI
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  27. #27
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Thanks for all of your input. Here is what I have come up with....

    Cuts, notches and holes bored in I-joists are not permitted except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional. The I-joist incorporated in the second floor floor framing have been bored with holes that are typically outside of the acceptable size and or locations allowed by most manufactures of the product. The manufactures allowable hole tables were not available at the time of inspection. Manufactures of I-joist routinely permit such alterations to permit routing of HVAC, plumbing, electrical, etc. Recommend obtaining a letter, permitting the holes bored in the second floor floor joist, from the manufacturer or design professional describing the location and size of the holes. If a letter can not be obtained, further evaluation of the I-joists by a licensed structural engineer is recommended.


  28. #28
    Eric Barker's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Looks good Vern - just need a little spell check on the two "manufactures."

    Manufacturer's would be better. It's a goofy word that I always have to type slowly.


    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  29. #29
    Vern Heiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    Looks good Vern - just need a little spell check on the two "manufactures."

    Manufacturer's would be better. It's a goofy word that I always have to type slowly.
    Oops, Thanks


  30. #30
    Bob Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    Just as a precaution...

    Depending on what your role is in this inspection... (Owners rep...?)

    I would have the contractor throw some temporary shoring up under there, until you get something from the joist design EoR... to prevent further damage during construction... I may be a while before you can get the engineering taken care of... and once the EoR give a letter of autorization for another engineer to re-engineer a fix... the new engineer won't be faced with the possibilty of catastorfic failure of the existing members...


  31. #31
    Michael Greenwalt's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJI "BIG HOLES"

    As Eric said, the TJI's are compromised. I usually contact the engineer or have the client do it. I find they usually have a rep in the area every week and will inspect them for free. Occasionally I find they have already been inspected with an engineering letter submitted to the contractor for replacement. (those letters always add a little extra to the report ). Just give em the address and they can let you know. Also, I find the fix isn't usually as difficult as one would expect. They usually engineer a repair that is quite conveneint and efficient.


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