Termites in Treated Lumber - InspectionNews

Jim Hintz · #1 (**permalink**) 10-21-2009, 07:33 PM

For those of you who may have been under the impression that Termites don't attack treated lumber - here you go!

Rick Hurst · #2 (**permalink**) 10-21-2009, 08:09 PM

Definately not subterranean termites if termites at all.

rick

Brandon Whitmore · #3 (**permalink**) 10-21-2009, 10:30 PM

That looks like pest damaged wood prior to it being milled/ treated.

Ron Bibler · #4 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 12:04 AM

That is frass

( YES THATS A WORD ) from an old wood boring beetle. One way you can note that its old is the what you see is the exposed tunnel from the lumber mill saw cut. what you pack inside is the dung of the beetle.

But you are correct the termites will eat treated materials. we can see this at any train tack by looking at the rail road ties. when you have a split in the log the untreated center is exposed and accessible for a sub-termite infestation

Best

Ron

Jim Hintz · #5 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 10:18 AM

Hey guys,

The Frass is hexagonal shaped - which is "Dampwood Termite" Frass. Look them up. We have them here in the Northwest.

Rick Hurst · #6 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 07:59 PM

Jim,

Are you a PCO by chance?

The only reason I ask is that I've never seen Dampwood termite damages as such. Those tunnel areas in your picture are too straight line and clean at the edges as most dampwood termites would do.

As far as the frass, I don't see it as being Hexagonal in shape as your mentioning, but hey I wasn't there.

I'm thinking as Ron mentioned as it being an infestation of the "borer beetle". I've seen that evidence in newly cut wood at a saw mill.

rick

Matt Fellman · #7 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 09:30 PM

I agree that looks like pre-mill damage. There's no insect I know of that makes half a tube.

It is odd to find that in PT lumber though...not so much because it's PT but because of the age it likely is. I rarely see much pre-mill damage in lumber after about 1960 and have always just figured they started radiating, sorting it better or something. And PT didn't start being used, at least in my area, until around 1970 or so.

Jim Hintz · #8 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 11:03 PM

Ok guys. The footings were waterstained the length of the run on the south side of the house (40ft +/-) the 3 sections of mudsill laid inline all had Termite damage. The lumber did not come from the mill this way, and wood boring beetles don't have hex turds. You need a magnifying glass to see the hex turds. I am not a licensed PCO but I am a licensed SPI - Structural Pest Inspector and have been for the past 7 years.

Rick Hurst · #9 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 12:08 AM

Jim,

You were there and were were not. Just by what I'm seeing in your pics makes me think otherwise just as the others have stated.

I just don't see the hexagonal pellets as you describle in your photos and I've never seen dampwood termite tunnels be filled with debris as is present.

Hey, write it up and let the PCO determine course of repair and treatment.

rick

Ron Bibler · #10 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Hintz

Ok guys. The footings were waterstained the length of the run on the south side of the house (40ft +/-) the 3 sections of mudsill laid inline all had Termite damage. The lumber did not come from the mill this way, and wood boring beetles don't have hex turds. You need a magnifying glass to see the hex turds. I am not a licensed PCO but I am a licensed SPI - Structural Pest Inspector and have been for the past 7 years.

Some beetles do have pellets that look almost just like a dry-wood termite pellet. Some people call them a furniture beetle form the far east. The ones in your photo are from an old bark beetle. Because the tunnel is long like that the board went though the mill. Beetles, termites, Carpenter bees will not cut a half exposed tunnel like that.

Any time you are under a home and you see long half cut open tunnels like that its and old dead beetle infestation cut in half by a saw.

See the attach photo same thing. Good find. you have a good eye.

I think the pelets you are finding are from an earwig some times its shiny black and gold like...

Ron Bibler
30 plus years
WDO, WDI, Branch 3 Calif. Lic.
UC Berkeley/Entomological Sciences.

Rick Hurst · #11 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 12:43 AM

Ron,

Does this guy look familar?

Corn Walker · #12 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

Beetles, termites, Carpenter bees will not cut a half exposed tunnel like that.

Unless, of course, that tunnel wasn't originally exposed.

I once removed a piece of styrofoam insulation that was tacked to the 2x PT rim joist and found carpenter ants had board through the softwood. The newly exposed half-tunnels looked just like the wood had been milled that way.

Jim Hintz · #13 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 07:33 PM

More pics for you non believers. This site really is just a tit for tat bitch session - he's right / no, he's right. That is why I never do "Presale Inspections." After this, I will never post a topic again on this site again.

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Hintz

More pics for you non believers. This site really is just a tit for tat bitch session - he's right / no, he's right. That is why I never do "Presale Inspections." After this, I will never post a topic again on this site again.

Jim,

Sounds like you have a very thin skin.

In which case maybe you should not even be a home inspector.

NOT coming here because you dislike the way information is exchanged is akin to saying you do not want to learn anything unless EVERYONE is willing to teach you YOUR WAY.

Jeez.

Matt Fellman · #15 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Hintz

More pics for you non believers. This site really is just a tit for tat bitch session - he's right / no, he's right. That is why I never do "Presale Inspections." After this, I will never post a topic again on this site again.

I went through the exact same feeling when I first started frequenting this site a few years ago. I've come to realize that most times I got that feeling there was some truth to what the others were saying. Not always of course but there is a lot of knowledge around here. I couldn't even begin to quantify how much better of an inspector I am after reading this board everyday for a few years.

Jim Hintz · #16 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 08:19 PM

Jeez Jerry,

Makes me think of the longest thread I've ever read - "SUB PANELS" -sound familiar?

I don't like to argue, especially using a keyboard, so that's it for me. Alot of people on this site are too confrontational and that must be the highpoint of their day, looking for someone to berate so they can feel good / superior - Reminds me kind of like a short person with "Napoleon Syndrome."

Ron Bibler · #17 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 08:37 PM

Hey Jim. I'm not picking on you... But Ive been working with bugs all my life there are 4 termite inspection companies in my family dating back to 1947. I only want to help. not make fun of you. Please open your under standing We all can get something to take home. Ive had my run ends with some of the inspectors on this board. If I'm wrong about something then I need help in that area. I can one only say this this way. Your findings are incorrect.
I would not want you to state this evidence in an FHA REPORT. This would be a miss ID. and could hurt you. If you were to sell a treatment for termites
and bill An FHA loan. That a federal offense...
I'm only trying to help.

Trust me My ID Of your boards is correct. Its old beetle evidence. Not Termites.

Best

Ron

fritzkelly · #18 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 09:17 PM

Jim, not wanting to argue or bitch, but how do you know the second set of pics is treated lumber?

John Kogel · #19 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 09:34 PM

Pacific Dampwood Termite Images, Photography, Stock Pictures, Archives, Fine Art Prints

Dampwood termites do not need to build tubes up from the ground and they do indeed carve long slots such as in Jim's pics.
Some of his pics show the machined marks of pressure-treated wood.
There are moisture stains running down over the concrete - damp wood.

Jerry Peck · #20 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Hintz

Makes me think of the longest thread I've ever read - "SUB PANELS" -sound familiar?

And eventually those home inspectors who understand things will understand the reason behind it, and why many have changed their terminology.

Then there are those home inspectors who never will understand the reason behind it, or simply do not care, and those are hopeless. All I can do is continue to try to reach those who are not hopeless, and most are not.

Not yet sure which type you are, but your posts and whining here sound like you are a hopeless type "because you already know it all - it is Jim's Way, and no one can teach me anything because I am already right".

You can correct me if I am wrong, but that is how your posts have been sounding.

Cobra Cook · #21 (**permalink**) 10-25-2009, 07:35 AM

Where are the tubes? termites get dry skin and die if they just walk around in the opening like that. Could have been large black ants at one time. I've seen them eat cedar like that when we mill wood.

John Kogel · #22 (**permalink**) 10-25-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Cook

Where are the tubes? termites get dry skin and die if they just walk around in the opening like that. Could have been large black ants at one time. I've seen them eat cedar like that when we mill wood.

If you read the posts, you will see these are said to have been Dampwood Termites, not Subterranean Termites. No tubes.

"Usually found in damp, decayed wood. Tunnel systems are open with many branches. Wood fiber is digested by symbiotic flagellates in the gut. This species is unique to the west coast.(Actually they have been found in Florida and elsewhere.)

Principal Hosts:
Most untreated wood products and dead trees in contact with the ground.
Economic Importance:
Usually infest damp, rotten wood, so their presence is an indication of rot problems. "

The pictures I posted show dampwood termites at work in the open air. However, they appear to be behind glass. The slots they have cut have rounded edges. The slots in the first set of pics are planed to a sharp edge.

On the other hand, would a carpenter choose a 2X4 full of beetle holes for the bottom plate of a house he was starting? Well, monday AM can be rough sometimes.

Ron Bibler · #23 (**permalink**) 10-25-2009, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Cook

Where are the tubes? termites get dry skin and die if they just walk around in the opening like that. Could have been large black ants at one time. I've seen them eat cedar like that when we mill wood.

You should do a little googling on termites. you will find that the earth has many types of Termites. Not sub-termites.

Best

Ron

John Kogel · #24 (**permalink**) 10-25-2009, 01:31 PM

I think I have encountered Dampwoods before, splitting up old fir windfalls for firewood. The ideal environment for them would I think be damp, and rotten wood in contact with the ground?

Jerry Peck · #25 (**permalink**) 10-25-2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kogel

I think I have encountered Dampwoods before, splitting up old fir windfalls for firewood. The ideal environment for them would I think be damp, and rotten wood in contact with the ground?

Any damp wood is fine with them, where roof leaks keep the fascia, sub-fascia, rafters/trusses damp, basically any damp wood anywhere is susceptible to damp wood termites.

I've seen the back sides of T-1-11 which had leaks above it which kept the T-1-11 damp all eaten up from damp wood termites.

Typically, damp wood colonies are quite small, even in comparison with drywood termite colonies, which are quite small in comparison with subterranean termite colonies - with Formosan subterranean termites colonies being the largest.

Stacey Van Houtan · #26 (**permalink**) 10-28-2009, 11:56 AM

I think this one is hard to call from the photos alone, On one photo i agree with Bibbler it looks like a tunnel filled with frass cut in half at the mill BUT I also seed where it looks like a tunnel patch (velvet like)

I have been a PCO in 2 states I have a degree in Life Science and Graduate work as well
The rule in biology is: that the exceptions are the rule.

Wood rot-Termite damage Preveous vs present damage -- You could have only on or any combination of the above and this makes ID difficult.

I have found subterrain termites without tunnels.

and I also lived in Portland OR There is a Pacific damp wood found only in the NW

In KC we have Riverboat gambiling and this one i would not take these odds to the boats