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  1. #1
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    Default 3x4 Cripple Studs

    1980, 2 story condo built on a downsloped lot. The cripple wall studs on the foundation crawlspace were 3x4. Generally, I seen 2x6 studs when supporting two stories. The studs are sized-up, just not in the same dimension that I typically see.

    I will probably flag it anyway, but I was hoping for some feedback.

    So... Whachoo think?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Duh, never mind. I found it.

    IRC 602.3.1
    Table 602.3(5)

    Too bad I can't delete stupidity.

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  3. #3
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Too bad I can't delete stupidity.
    This is a good thing, because a lot of us would be gone.

    I have never seen 3x4's, and would have never thought that they were specifically mentioned in the IRC. Thanks for the code cite.


  4. #4
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzkelly View Post
    ....... were there any obvious issues from the undersized studs?
    Studs are not undersized .

    Table R 602.3(5)
    Maximum spacing when supporting two floors, roof and ceiling (inches) 3x4's, 16"


  5. #5
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Maybe a portable mill guy made some lumber. Might have been a tree right on the lot.
    I see roughcut milled lumber once in a while "out in the sticks". The town Code inspectors only want to see stamped wood from the mill, wood that is sanded and graded.

    Gunnar, did you see a timber stamp? I just relooked the pics, too smooth for homemade, unless he planed it too. Maybe metric lumber meant for export?

    Is relooked a word? It should be. []

    Last edited by John Kogel; 02-05-2010 at 10:55 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Maybe a portable mill guy made some lumber. Might have been a tree right on the lot. I see roughcut milled lumber once in a while "out in the sticks". The town Code inspectors only want to see stamped wood from the mill, wood that is sanded and graded. Gunnar, did you see a timber stamp? I just relooked the pics, too smooth for homemade, unless he planed it too. Maybe metric lumber meant for export? Is relooked a word? It should be. []
    Unlikely to be homemade. Condo development. Multiple buildings. I did not think to look for a stamp, I was more interested in the unusual (to me) dimension. I have only seen 2x6s used in situations like this. However, according to the IRC, 3x4s are interchangeable. However, I too have never seen 3x4s. Must have been a special order.

    By the way, the IN spell check does not recognize "relook" or its variants.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    By the way, the IN spell check does not recognize "relook" or its variants.
    Well I've relooked lots of stuff and it's always worked for me.


  8. #8
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Unlikely to be homemade. Condo development. Multiple buildings. I did not think to look for a stamp, I was more interested in the unusual (to me) dimension. I have only seen 2x6s used in situations like this. However, according to the IRC, 3x4s are interchangeable. However, I too have never seen 3x4s. Must have been a special order.

    By the way, the IN spell check does not recognize "relook" or its variants.

    2x6=12

    3x4=12

    Sounds good to me

    You are in California. Things are a bit differnet out there. Arn't they? Isn't that the state where the words were written "You can get anything you want at ......" Maybe it has something to do with all those workers smokin medical weed. 3x4, 2x6, sounds the same to me!


  9. #9
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    2x6=12

    3x4=12

    Sounds good to me

    You are in California. Things are a bit differnet out there. Arn't they? Isn't that the state where the words were written "You can get anything you want at ......" Maybe it has something to do with all those workers smokin medical weed. 3x4, 2x6, sounds the same to me!
    1x12=12


  10. #10
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by James Risley View Post
    Hey, I looked at the pictures again and it appears that the floor joists are also 3x?
    Really?


  11. #11
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    gunnar,
    i am not seeing a mudsill or bolts of any kind? i am not seeing insulation either? what's up?


  12. #12
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by James Risley View Post
    Hey, I looked at the pictures again and it appears that the floor joists are also 3x? stock probably due to sizing for span. The supporting studs under the plates then should be at least the same size as the joists being supported. It is possible that the short 3x4 studs were ripped at the jobsite from excess 3x? joists. I would order extra joists to be able to reject some joists as something I would prefer to not use as joists due to excess crown or end checking etc.
    Joists were 2x something. Don't remember offhand.

    Quote Originally Posted by brian schmitt View Post
    gunnar,
    i am not seeing a mudsill or bolts of any kind? i am not seeing insulation either? what's up?
    Anchor bolts were there. Hard to see in the pic. No insulation. Built prior to requirements for insulation.

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  13. #13
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    The few times i have seen unusual sized framing is when the buiding is a pre-fab modular. This must have been cost saving.


  14. #14
    Daniel Mummey's Avatar
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    Wink Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    In my rush review of comments I saw simple math (section "area") to demonstrate some kind of strength equivalency in resistance to "crippling".
    It doesn't really work that way. Formula to check/compare column strength (compression along its vertical axis and in this case fully supported along each cripple's length by the sheathing and redundant in members) is to look at the member's section modulus about it's narrow central axis. Compare this to a 2 x 6's section modulus (greater or equal is desirable). Specie and grade factors into this also. BUT why analyze all this if the structure has apparently not been altered and has stood the test of time??


  15. #15
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Joists were 2x something. Don't remember offhand.



    Anchor bolts were there. Hard to see in the pic. No insulation. Built prior to requirements for insulation.
    gunnar,
    i built my first home in 1978 and still have the original required energy calcs and the underfloor was required to be insulated with r-11, walls r-11 and roof r-19! my second and current house i built in 1982 and it required r-11 under floor, 19 ceiling and 19 walls.i live in the mt shasta area so it may have been different from the flatlands at the time or not enforced by the local ahj!
    the 3x4 studs as you discovered are currently and were code complying at the time of construction.


  16. #16
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: 3x4 Cripple Studs

    Daniel,
    1rst- Welcome to the board.

    2nd-
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Mummey View Post
    I saw simple math (section "area") to demonstrate some kind of strength equivalency in resistance to "crippling".
    It doesn't really work that way.
    Ted was being facetious, and I was making a joke (or at least attempting to).

    3rd-
    BUT why analyze all this if the structure has apparently not been altered and has stood the test of time??
    To quote others, "just because it has not failed yet, does not mean it is not wrong", and there are MANY,MANY, variations of this quote. Also sharing ideas, and getting different opinion helps inform and educate all of us, which leads me to point #4.........

    4th-
    Formula to check/compare column strength (compression along its vertical axis and in this case fully supported along each cripple's length by the sheathing and redundant in members) is to look at the member's section modulus about it's narrow central axis. Compare this to a 2 x 6's section modulus (greater or equal is desirable). Specie and grade factors into this also.
    See, the good news is, you have shared an opinion that has not been mentioned.
    The bad news for me is, I have no idea what the hell it means.


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