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  1. #1
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    Default CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Todays insp was a 60s full hip block foundation home. With 5 ply beam running up the middle, resting on two posts. No parging or bitumous protection anywhere. The western foundation wall has a horizontal crack in the first course below grade. Approx ten blocks long and then is hidden by a new wall. No leaks, no bowing or bulging, that I could see. I pointed out the new wall and what might be found there?
    Since this is not at great depths I am guessing a seasoned brick and mortar god could fix that? There is some step crack as well, you could see some with light coming in. There is no doubt that some labour will be needed
    Re-pointing, parging and damproofing a 25x20 foundation must take some time and cost. Any ballpark costs and time for this.

    Pics were to large to load up, I use an HD camera and I dont know how to resize pics,,,yet.

    any words of wisdom

    Steve

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    "any words of wisdom"

    Yes
    Do not recommend a specific repair
    Report what you see
    You MIGHT report possible causes
    Recommend a specialty contractor to determine what repair is needed

    10' crack with stair step crack with daylight showing
    unlikely that pointing, parging, ... will correct the problem
    It will cover the cracks... unless there is still movement of the wall, then the cracks come back.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    The question which your client needs to have addressed is whether or not the cracks are active and possible causes.

    You can mention verbally what type of repairs may be required for informational purposes, but I would definitely write in the report that further assessment is required by a geo-technical engineer familiar with foundations as to status and repair options prior to close of title.

    Costs are dependent on repair methods.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    I agree, I am not designing the fix. I am trying to get my head around cost. Easy enough repair, great access. Its only about 12 inches below grade. Labour intensive. I dont have any masonry in my trade background. I have book smarts only in this area (lol).


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    "any words of wisdom"

    Yes
    Do not recommend a specific repair
    Report what you see
    You MIGHT report possible causes
    Recommend a specialty contractor to determine what repair is needed

    10' crack with stair step crack with daylight showing
    unlikely that pointing, parging, ... will correct the problem
    It will cover the cracks... unless there is still movement of the wall, then the cracks come back.



  5. #5
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    I passed this info to the client. I dont think the wall is a freak factor five. I am more thinking time to complete. This is Nov, ground is getting hard without the snow. Can this be done now or maybe some preventive measure for the spring, he has gutters and a big o The basement took some time to take in....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    The question which your client needs to have addressed is whether or not the cracks are active and possible causes.

    You can mention verbally what type of repairs may be required for informational purposes, but I would definitely write in the report that further assessment is required by a geo-technical engineer familiar with foundations as to status and repair options prior to close of title.

    Costs are dependent on repair methods.



  6. #6
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Ref Active cracks. Since a new wall was add it is mpossible to see what behind it, but we can dig down and see whats going on.
    There is a big tree on the front lawn, maybe the roots heading to the big O for water.

    I looked in the cracks, no paint chips, dirt or signs of water. The crack is at the bottom of the course and above the cement line if that helps.

    Anyone know how to resize pics for here?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    The interior wall should be opened in order to ascertain the extent of damage.

    Are you on a PC or a Mac?


  8. #8
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    I am using a compaq presario PC...I had to write more than 5 words ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    The interior wall should be opened in order to ascertain the extent of damage.

    Are you on a PC or a Mac?



  9. #9
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Steve

    I would be happy to resize them for you if you want to send a couple to me. I am on a Mac.

    inforwhis@rogers.com


  10. #10
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    I agree, I am not designing the fix. I am trying to get my head around cost. Easy enough repair, great access. Its only about 12 inches below grade. Labour intensive. I dont have any masonry in my trade background. I have book smarts only in this area (lol).
    I'm not busting you, but I want you to read what you wrote

    Easy repair
    Labor intensive

    Easy access
    hidden by new wall

    I don't have masonry background
    I am guessing a brick and mortar guy can fix

    Refer this to an expert

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 11-21-2011 at 05:44 PM.
    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Posted on behalf of Steve G.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    It's likely just the camera, but the wall looks bowed.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Shoveling dirt is easy, but lots of it make it labour intensive

    Easy access to remove the new wall, hiding the....

    Yup no background, but I am 'guessing' that he could.

    Typing, thinking and asking for help is taxing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    I'm not busting you, but I want you to read what you wrote

    Easy repair
    Labor intensive

    Easy access
    hidden by new wall

    I don't have masonry background
    I am guessing a brick and mortar guy can fix

    Refer this to an expert



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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Guessing does not cut it in a home inspection, so just tell the client to get an estimate from a builder or 3 builders even better.
    Any horizontal crack needs a closer look. I might have brought my 4 ft level in for that one. Hold the level vertical against the wall and measure the deflection with a tape.
    If a concrete block wall is bulging, it may not be reinforced properly. It could be a disaster. Don't take chances with this type of foundation issue.

    Don't call any repair easy.
    Easy for you to say, but try finding someone that can dig by hand and try paying the labour costs.
    I recall one time an easy correction of wiring and plumbing to a garbage disposer ended up costing $900+, excluding the drywall and paint repair.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  15. #15
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    My guessing is my learning curve, and I do that here. I would never guess in front of a client. I am a pretty binary guy. Its either working or its not.
    In hindsite, my 4 foot level is going in the truck. I dont make repair suggestions. My questions were for my benefit to understand the crack and anything else I can. I did write into the report get the foundation checked out. Yellow pages.
    No repair are easy and its not my intention to demean the labor of any trade. Its a glib flip statement.
    As for digging. I was a soldier for over 26 yrs. I am a soil specialist on three continants. Rifle on the right, shovel on the left.

    airborne


    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Guessing does not cut it in a home inspection, so just tell the client to get an estimate from a builder or 3 builders even better.
    Any horizontal crack needs a closer look. I might have brought my 4 ft level in for that one. Hold the level vertical against the wall and measure the deflection with a tape.
    If a concrete block wall is bulging, it may not be reinforced properly. It could be a disaster. Don't take chances with this type of foundation issue.

    Don't call any repair easy.
    Easy for you to say, but try finding someone that can dig by hand and try paying the labour costs.
    I recall one time an easy correction of wiring and plumbing to a garbage disposer ended up costing $900+, excluding the drywall and paint repair.



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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Steve

    In my learned experience, clients want to know how a defect may have resulted. Again I see no harm in explaining why something may have gone awry. You do not have to put that aspect in your report.

    However where inspectors are taken to task are the result of:

    1. The report identifies a problem condition, but NOT its significance or meaning.

    2. The report understates the significance or meaning of a problem condition.

    3. The inspector verbally dilutes the significance or meaning of a problem
    condition identified in the report.

    4. The report fails to suggest that the client retain an expert to more fully
    evaluate a problem condition.

    5. The report fails to identify a limitation which prevents or hinders a more
    thorough inspection of an area.


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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    OK, Steve. I was not trying to preach, but sometimes posts like this come out that way.
    Yes, I rarely use the level but as a straight edge, it can tell you if a floor or wall is outside the limits of tolerance.
    A shrinkage crack will usually be fairly uniform in width and normally appear vertical or stair stepped but not likely horizontally. That would defy gravity.
    So a horizontal crack in a block wall means the wall is bowing in. It is only a fraction of an inch so far, but that is all we know. My concern would be whether there is adequate rebar and concrete fill to hold those blocks in place. If so, it might never get worse.

    We do a lot of inspections for the armed forces out here. A transfer to Esquimalt must seem like the Holy Grail when you've been in Cold Lake for a winter or two. Anyway, thanks to all our armed forces and happy to see you all got back from Libya safe and sound.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  18. #18
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    I doubt very much they put rebar in or filled the hollows with grout in a home from that period.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Bear with me guys. Not only growing in my new trade, still learning to be a civilan, pretty certain which one I am failing.

    Ray...your second last post is gold. I just printed it. Great words.

    John...its hard to read the temperature of water on line. Our written word can be as cold as my first wife. Just as confusing as well...We deal with it eh...


    Ive been told that some of my emails and texts have the feeling of me yelling. Working on that part, I found the caps lock button.

    Thank you for your assistance

    ex coelis


  20. #20
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    any words of wisdom
    Steve
    That's not much of a crack.
    The house is 50 years old, right?
    Is the house in Ontario Canada? If so, Ontario is a big place, what is the frost depth at the house?

    Do you have a photo that shows exterior landscape, grading and drainage - the other side of the wall? Is the grading next to the house pretty flat?

    Fred Comb, ACI
    Mahtomedi, MN
    www.homeinspectionsofmn.com

  21. #21
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Hey Fred,

    Yes the home is around that age. The lot slopes away from the foundation. I mentioned the crack is one course below grade. The ground up here in Pembroke is predominatley sand...
    Frost depth are 4feet here. Yep Ontario is pretty big, I live in about he middle of it. Lots of rock and sand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Comb View Post
    That's not much of a crack.
    The house is 50 years old, right?
    Is the house in Ontario Canada? If so, Ontario is a big place, what is the frost depth at the house?

    Do you have a photo that shows exterior landscape, grading and drainage - the other side of the wall? Is the grading next to the house pretty flat?



  22. #22
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Steve

    In my learned experience, clients want to know how a defect may have resulted. Again I see no harm in explaining why something may have gone awry. You do not have to put that aspect in your report.

    However where inspectors are taken to task are the result of:

    1. The report identifies a problem condition, but NOT its significance or meaning.

    2. The report understates the significance or meaning of a problem condition.

    3. The inspector verbally dilutes the significance or meaning of a problem
    condition identified in the report.

    4. The report fails to suggest that the client retain an expert to more fully
    evaluate a problem condition.

    5. The report fails to identify a limitation which prevents or hinders a more
    thorough inspection of an area.
    Very good list Raymond
    Add to that
    The inspector prescribes (or even suggest) a repair that is incomplete, inappropriate or inadequate and does not solve the cause of the problem.

    It's kinda like
    Seeing a water stain on the ceiling and recommending to paint it with stain blocker primer. Since the cause of the stain was not determined the stain will likely return. The problem is not the stain, the problem is "What caused the stain".

    Stephen in your case, the problem is not the crack in the wall, but what caused the crack. Without knowing the cause, doing (recommending) any repair is unlikely to address the cause.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Understood, as I look over the pics and what the client told me he should have his Nikes on and run.
    The crack is in the front of the house, pretty big tree in front, root bumps can be seen on the ground. Its one of many potential causes.

    Ultimately the client will make the call. I have informed him of the conditions that exist. I have pointed out the numerous repairs to the blocks. I include the implications should this crack not get repaired. I use Horizon and it includes illustrations that amplify my words.

    Going to read it over and press send.


    Thank you all for your time.

    Steve


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Very good list Raymond
    Add to that
    The inspector prescribes (or even suggest) a repair that is incomplete, inappropriate or inadequate and does not solve the cause of the problem.

    It's kinda like
    Seeing a water stain on the ceiling and recommending to paint it with stain blocker primer. Since the cause of the stain was not determined the stain will likely return. The problem is not the stain, the problem is "What caused the stain".

    Stephen in your case, the problem is not the crack in the wall, but what caused the crack. Without knowing the cause, doing (recommending) any repair is unlikely to address the cause.


    Last edited by Stephen G; 11-22-2011 at 05:42 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    The inspector prescribes (or even suggest) a repair that is incomplete, inappropriate or inadequate and does not solve the cause of the problem.
    You are offering alternatives/options as to repairs, you are not recommending how it be repaired. And I would never put in a report how to repair something other than routine maintenance. Its up to the contractor how to go about repairing it. I never imply that choice of repair method would be the solution. The client should know what options exist for repairs. Such as carbon banding, pillasters, wall bracing, anchor tie backs, rebuild the wall.....

    That is why its imperative to recommend further investigation prior to close of title.

    I guess it comes down to the confidence and knowledge of the inspector.


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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Steve,

    The bottom line is, you as an inspector are providing the best information to your client in order that he can carry out his due diligence, such as seeking further expert advice, make inquiries of the town, cost repairs out, go back to vendor through his agent to negotiate further.

    I am sure your client will be pleased with your standard of care. The fact you took the time to ask your peers is evidence of that and the information I provided you off line.

    As you know I also use Horizon.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen G View Post
    Hey Fred,

    Yes the home is around that age. The lot slopes away from the foundation. I mentioned the crack is one course below grade. The ground up here in Pembroke is predominatley sand...
    Frost depth are 4feet here. Yep Ontario is pretty big, I live in about he middle of it. Lots of rock and sand.
    Stephen - I didn't mean lot grading , just the first few feet out from the house - the perimeter grade.

    This type of crack is generally caused by a force that applied excessive pressure on the wall from outside and was pushing in. The force was within a few feet of the wall. The force is generally caused by soil expansion that occurs during freezing. Wet soil expands, dry soil not so much.

    Check the exterior grading within the area that's just a few feet out from the house - such as level ground next to the house, a patio or walkway that's flat or sloping toward the house, downspouts or roof edge that directs water next to or near the side of the house, landscape mulch that is installed in a depression immediately next to the house, or a landscape edge that acts like a dam and prevents proper drainage - you get the idea.

    There's a good chance the crack is caused by poor grading and drainage. A photo would help me be more certain.

    Fred Comb, ACI
    Mahtomedi, MN
    www.homeinspectionsofmn.com

  27. #27
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    The area immd in front of that wall is a very small garden. This crack could have been there for year, maybe when the dozer backfilled?
    My pics are to big and need to be resized, will work on that for next time.

    I sent off the report. I fully explained the conditions that exist at the time of the inspection and included enough implications that unless he has to buy this house he should be calling me back later this week to look at another one.
    I only whish I could come out and say what I want to say, things like: If you purchase this home you will single handedly keep the local contrators busy for a long time. or...Cant you read what I wrote, run stupid....If you buy this house I will come back and break your fingers.

    But I didnt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Comb View Post
    Stephen - I didn't mean lot grading , just the first few feet out from the house - the perimeter grade.

    This type of crack is generally caused by a force that applied excessive pressure on the wall from outside and was pushing in. The force was within a few feet of the wall. The force is generally caused by soil expansion that occurs during freezing. Wet soil expands, dry soil not so much.

    Check the exterior grading within the area that's just a few feet out from the house - such as level ground next to the house, a patio or walkway that's flat or sloping toward the house, downspouts or roof edge that directs water next to or near the side of the house, landscape mulch that is installed in a depression immediately next to the house, or a landscape edge that acts like a dam and prevents proper drainage - you get the idea.

    There's a good chance the crack is caused by poor grading and drainage. A photo would help me be more certain.



  28. #28
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    One other item which comes to mind .... if the vendor is home during inspection he can be queried as to the history of the crack. If vendor is not present ... you can put in your report that the purchaser should query the vendor as to the age of the crack.

    I am not sure the crack was the result of freezing due to the fact the wall is not insulated, even if it was insulated.

    A good read.

    https://www.buildingscience.com/docu...archterm=frost


  29. #29
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Be careful when comparing apples to oranges...

    Fred Comb, ACI
    Mahtomedi, MN
    www.homeinspectionsofmn.com

  30. #30
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    You lost me. Care to explain?


  31. #31
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    As no one else has answered the photo resizing issue,

    Download FastStone Photo Resizer. It's at the bottom of this link:

    FastStone Image Viewer - Powerful and Intuitive Photo Viewer, Editor and Batch Converter

    Learn to use it. I resize mine to 640 x 480 preset size.

    Does one or many with just a couple of clicks (after you get it set the way you want it.

    Make sure you select the right folder to put the resized photos in.

    It also lets you watermark the photos.

    See example below:

    -

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
    Find on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/B4UCloseInspections

  32. #32
    Stephen G's Avatar
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Thank you very much Mr Crofutt. I will learn to use it.

    As an unpdate on the foundation, the clients had an expert in to insp. Client wrote me and said, he was happy with what needed to be done and work will start next week, they hope to move in Jan sometime.

    Then I recieved two thank you emails, one from the client and the other from his wife,,,,makes the job worth it eh...



    Quote Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt View Post
    As no one else has answered the photo resizing issue,

    Download FastStone Photo Resizer. It's at the bottom of this link:

    FastStone Image Viewer - Powerful and Intuitive Photo Viewer, Editor and Batch Converter

    Learn to use it. I resize mine to 640 x 480 preset size.

    Does one or many with just a couple of clicks (after you get it set the way you want it.

    Make sure you select the right folder to put the resized photos in.

    It also lets you watermark the photos.

    See example below:

    -



  33. #33
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    The horizontal crack would indicate hydrostatic pressure from surface water trapped around the excavated ring of the house. The trapped water exerts tremendous pressure against the block especially within the red zone of the basement - that top three foot area that has to fight the freeze-thaw cycle. As frozen water expands at least 9% - 20% it is easy to understand that something has to give - and the block and mortar strength becomes an issue.
    As for the step down cracks - that may indicate a settling issue at the footer level. It becomes a "drop" issue - something lost the ability to continue to be level. This is common when a false water table washes up and down under the floor or footer. Just as standing in sand as the ocean waves come in and recede - so is a basement foundation prone to drop or shift if what is underneath is compromised. This "undermining" creates a "washed away" pattern under basements over a period of time. Our experience indicates that up to 95% of footers suffer such pressure and develop cracks and instability.
    When we dig and excavate for the foundation of a house, we keep in mind that we are the intruders and that the water and soil will try and reclaim the space we have taken.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Thanks Kenneth

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth Edlin View Post
    This is common when a false water table washes up and down under the floor or footer. Just as standing in sand as the ocean waves come in and recede - .



  35. #35
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    SG

    For your reading enjoyment
    CBD-128. Adfreezing and Frost Heaving of Foundations - IRC - NRC-CNRC

    Of interest heated basements.


  36. #36
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Thanx Ray, will hit there later today. Odd, its now sunny outside and my wood wont stack itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    SG

    For your reading enjoyment
    CBD-128. Adfreezing and Frost Heaving of Foundations - IRC - NRC-CNRC

    Of interest heated basements.



  37. #37
    Norm Grande's Avatar
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    Smile Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    re resizing of your pictures. Another option for you.... I use Picasa (free download from Google folks) to organize and resize my pictures, etc. It also has a feature to resize pics when you email them. Just another option for you...


  38. #38
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    Default Re: CMU foundation, horizontal crack

    Norm

    Ill try that as well,

    thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Grande View Post
    re resizing of your pictures. Another option for you.... I use Picasa (free download from Google folks) to organize and resize my pictures, etc. It also has a feature to resize pics when you email them. Just another option for you...



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