Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 65 of 89
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    145

    Default Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Dry rot is pretty amazing in how good things look until you give it that little shove with a screwdriver.
    First picture is the beam. Second picture is the beam (same place) after a little stab with my screwdriver. Third picture is a good looking joist with the screwdiver buried to the hilt. Another amazing fact is the homeowner just had someone repair the foundation.Before.jpg.jpgAfter.jpg.jpgIMG_4910.jpg

    Similar Threads:
    NHIE Practice Exam

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,394

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Obviously, you shoved the screwdriver too hard.....go easy on that lumber, big guy........

    I saw some today that had been painted over. I nearly missed it because the paint job was pretty good, but there was an odd wrinkle in the paint and when I jabbed it with my screw driver, it went through the jamb.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    2,365

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Ha Ha.... the only thing I'd disagree with is that it's amazing

    Up here in the damp Pacific NW that's an everday crawl space. At least one with no vapor barrier and minimal ventilation. I regularly look at a crawl space from the hatch it's not a question of if but where and how much insect damage and rot I'm going to find.

    Kidding aside, I totally agree with how surprising it is that the wood can look good until you start whacking at it. Sounding is the best way I've found... As I crawl around I'll hit the wood with the handle of my screwdriver and when it's hollow... bingo.

    The biggest problem I run into is being able to tell my client how extensive the damage is since many times the crawl spaces get completely inaccessible. They'll start at 3 feet and end at 6".

    Writing these up is a bit challenging.... I never want to infer that I found all the damgae. I don't care how long you spend in some crawl spaces, you'll never find it all.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Lansdale, PA
    Posts
    876

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    Dry rot is pretty amazing in how good things look until you give it that little shove with a screwdriver.
    First picture is the beam. Second picture is the beam (same place) after a little stab with my screwdriver. Third picture is a good looking joist with the screwdiver buried to the hilt. Another amazing fact is the homeowner just had someone repair the foundation.Before.jpg.jpgAfter.jpg.jpgIMG_4910.jpg
    Often when you see wood decay like that you will notice that the bottom of the joists are slightly concave. When I see that the wood is often soft enough to be broken by hand.


  5. #5
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Doing destructive testing like that here in San Diego would get me in serious trouble. Apparently destructive testing is reserved by law to licensed pest control professionals. Sadly, California does not have licensing for home inspectors, yet we license electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, roofing contractors, general contractors, painters, landscapers, even hair stylists. But not home inspectors..........


  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Looking at the little light-colored specks (exit holes) on the joists, it looks like Anobid Beetle damage. Sellers got BIG problems, did the client walk?


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Holladay, UT
    Posts
    565

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    First thing I thought of with damp crawlspace was termites.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,394

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    Doing destructive testing like that here in San Diego would get me in serious trouble. Apparently destructive testing is reserved by law to licensed pest control professionals. Sadly, California does not have licensing for home inspectors, yet we license electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, roofing contractors, general contractors, painters, landscapers, even hair stylists. But not home inspectors..........
    Are you saying that you can't probe wood joists for rot, termites, etc?

    And licensing is overrated. Don't be so quick to lament that you aren't licensed.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  9. #9
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    Are you saying that you can't probe wood joists for rot, termites, etc?

    And licensing is overrated. Don't be so quick to lament that you aren't licensed.
    The home inspection, by every standard I've ever read, is a "visual inspection." Thus, at the advice of my real estate attorneys and my E&O company advisors, no, I don't "probe" wood joists for rot, termites, etc. Destructive testing for WDI&O is reserved by law to licensed pest control professionals. They usually do their inspections well before mine, and the pest control inspection is about the only disclosure document that I have any confidence in.

    I've been a home inspector in San Diego since October 2001. If we had licensing for our profession, our E&O premiums would be much lower. As it is, we're just a bunch of yo-yos having fun trying to destroy things like it's Christmas morning, putting our fun down on paper for other people to buy by, and then asking insurance companies to cover all the fun we're having.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    First thing I thought of with damp crawlspace was termites.
    Morning Tom,

    Anobid exit holes look like "Birdshot" out of a 410 shotgun. The entrance / exit holes created by Dampwoods are oblong with sharp edges - similar to Carpenter Ant entry / exit holes, the difference being, they are smoothed like driftwood found on the beach. Dampwoods actually digest the wood and deposit it in the channels they carve, resembling a poorly matched filler-putty. Carpenter Ants spit the wood out and their galleries are clean with smoothed edges. You can have Subterranean Termites in a damp crawlspace - they build "mud tubes" up the foundation walls to reach the substructure which can have little moisture content. Dampwoods are just that, the wood has to be wet for them to exist. Cure the leak, the wood dries out, and the Dampwoods die, not so with Subterraneans.

    Last edited by Jim Hintz; 05-14-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    145

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Russel,
    The destruction was there as rotten wood. I believe that not probing the floor joist, beams and sub flooring would be a big "Error" and I know I would consider it to be an "omission" if I didn't probe them.
    My SOP requires me to report as deficient deteriorated materials; damaged beams, joists, bridging, blocking, piers, posts, pilings, or subfloor. We also have to render a written opinion as to the performace of the foundation. You wouldn't know just by looking at it.


  12. #12
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    Russel,
    The destruction was there as rotten wood. I believe that not probing the floor joist, beams and sub flooring would be a big "Error" and I know I would consider it to be an "omission" if I didn't probe them.
    My SOP requires me to report as deficient deteriorated materials; damaged beams, joists, bridging, blocking, piers, posts, pilings, or subfloor. We also have to render a written opinion as to the performace of the foundation. You wouldn't know just by looking at it.
    I understand Gary. In Texas, you have home inspector licensing, although I'm not sure I agree with licensing which includes how to format your report with margins, fonts, etc. As I said previously, though, termite professionals get to do that stuff here in California, so I tell my clients to combine the termite report with the home inspection report and they'll have a complete view of the property.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Holladay, UT
    Posts
    565

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Morning Jim, Look at third picture and second board over. Does that look like "poorly matched filler-putty". You sound like you are an experienced pest inspector so I am interested in what you see. It is very dry here in Utah and we don't have the problems some of you have in wet climates. I do occasionally find WDI and almost always in crawlspaces or behind water heaters and washers. Thanks!!

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,394

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    The home inspection, by every standard I've ever read, is a "visual inspection." Thus, at the advice of my real estate attorneys and my E&O company advisors, no, I don't "probe" wood joists for rot, termites, etc. Destructive testing for WDI&O is reserved by law to licensed pest control professionals. They usually do their inspections well before mine, and the pest control inspection is about the only disclosure document that I have any confidence in.

    I've been a home inspector in San Diego since October 2001. If we had licensing for our profession, our E&O premiums would be much lower. As it is, we're just a bunch of yo-yos having fun trying to destroy things like it's Christmas morning, putting our fun down on paper for other people to buy by, and then asking insurance companies to cover all the fun we're having.
    I'll be blunt......you can't call yourself a home inspector if all you do is look at the pretty wood and recommend having Orkin come out to inspect it. Probing wood, tapping on shower tile, or shaking the deck guard rail for stability is home inspecting 101. Licensing has nothing to do with it. And since I'm eyeball deep in the effort to create licensing in Colorado, I can tell you that E&O is the same price for HIs in states with licensing as it is for me here. There are some benefits for HIs with licensing, but saving money isn't one of them.

    While I can easily believe that an attorney might tell you not to probe wood, remember that half of all attorneys are wrong in every litigation and you have had the misfortune of getting advise from the loosing half. Probing is not destructive when you stick your screwdriver through already destroyed rotted wood. If it's solid wood, then you can't damage it with a light jab.

    I've been doing this for over fifteen years, and still learn new things and continue to modify (improve) how I inspect. I am strongly suggesting to you that you should have this conversation with fellow San Diego inspectors at your next association chapter meeting. I will be amazed if not probing wood is the standard of practice by your fellow inspectors. You do not want to be in front of a judge explaining that you are smarter than all the other inspectors by doing less than what your fellow inspectors are doing.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    358

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    Morning Jim, Look at third picture and second board over. Does that look like "poorly matched filler-putty". You sound like you are an experienced pest inspector so I am interested in what you see. It is very dry here in Utah and we don't have the problems some of you have in wet climates. I do occasionally find WDI and almost always in crawlspaces or behind water heaters and washers. Thanks!!
    Morning Tom,
    That pic is a little fuzzy to make out, there is a lighter color "vein" running about an inch up from the bottom of the joist, but like I said, it's too fuzzy to give you a definitive answer. Drywood termites have "Kick" holes to push the dropping out of the galleries due to limited space. There will be little piles of "fecal pellets" under the "kick" holes. Dampwoods leave their pellets in the channels they carve. Talcum Powder - like sawdust in, near or under the "bird shot" holes is Anobids.


  16. #16
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    I'll be blunt......you can't call yourself a home inspector if all you do is look at the pretty wood and recommend having Orkin come out to inspect it. Probing wood, tapping on shower tile, or shaking the deck guard rail for stability is home inspecting 101. Licensing has nothing to do with it. And since I'm eyeball deep in the effort to create licensing in Colorado, I can tell you that E&O is the same price for HIs in states with licensing as it is for me here. There are some benefits for HIs with licensing, but saving money isn't one of them.

    While I can easily believe that an attorney might tell you not to probe wood, remember that half of all attorneys are wrong in every litigation and you have had the misfortune of getting advise from the loosing half. Probing is not destructive when you stick your screwdriver through already destroyed rotted wood. If it's solid wood, then you can't damage it with a light jab.

    I've been doing this for over fifteen years, and still learn new things and continue to modify (improve) how I inspect. I am strongly suggesting to you that you should have this conversation with fellow San Diego inspectors at your next association chapter meeting. I will be amazed if not probing wood is the standard of practice by your fellow inspectors. You do not want to be in front of a judge explaining that you are smarter than all the other inspectors by doing less than what your fellow inspectors are doing.
    I know about 100 inspectors in Southern California's ten counties, and the only ones I know who are doing destructive testing for pests in this area are those who also hold a pest control license.

    I've learned over the years not to let people in other states try to influence how we do home inspections in San Diego, or really any other area where they don't do business.

    I understand your opinion, but I can't subscribe to it in this specific instance.


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    I probe with my sharp screwdriver, but I am never destructive.

    My SOP, which follows the ASHI one, specifically says we must probe if rot is suspected. For paint over rot in a visible place, I might just probe it gently with a fingernail, knowing full well it is rotten.
    Failure to probe can land you in serious doodoo.
    But Mr Ray, you have made a good point, you do what works for you in your neck of the woods.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by John Kogel; 05-15-2013 at 04:43 PM.
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    145

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    I know about 100 inspectors in Southern California's ten counties, and the only ones I know who are doing destructive testing for pests in this area are those who also hold a pest control license.

    I've learned over the years not to let people in other states try to influence how we do home inspections in San Diego, or really any other area where they don't do business.

    I understand your opinion, but I can't subscribe to it in this specific instance.

    Russel,
    I was not "destroying" the foundation looking for pests. I "destroyed" it making a determination of the condition of the foundation. Home Inspectors, PE's, Structural Engineers and Foundation Company techs will (or should) do what I did under this house. When the second opinion is rendered, there should be no doubt where I called out the problem.

    There were no termites at this location under the home. There was damage from subteranean termites in another spot.


  19. #19
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I probe with my sharp screwdriver, but I am never destructive.

    My SOP, which follows the ASHI one, specifically says we must probe if rot is suspected. For paint over rot in a visible place, I might just probe it gently with a fingernail, knowing full well it is rotten.
    Failure to probe can land you in serious doodoo.
    But Mr Ray, you have made a good point, you do what works for you in your neck of the woods.
    Exactly, and here in San Diego, it's the pest control professionals who have the requirement to probe and the possibility of landing in serious doodoo for failing to probe.

    Now if we could get home inspector licensing in California, then we might/should be able to institute certain standards for our profession. Until then, our standards are implemented by InterNACHI, ASHI, CREIA, AHI, and perhaps more. In fact, for those home inspectors who are not members of any trade association, they implement their own standards, and some of their standards are just plain awful.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    Exactly, and here in San Diego, it's the pest control professionals who have the requirement to probe and the possibility of landing in serious doodoo for failing to probe.
    Russel,

    How you doing?

    I've been following this and the point being made by others is (if I am reading the posts correctly) that the home inspector, not the pest inspector, is looking for "structural damage/structural defects" and that already-damaged-structural-member is 'not damaged' by 'probing', the 'damage' was done by insects/organism/etc., thus probing is *not* "destructive testing", even the pest control inspectors are *not* doing "destructive testing" as the damage was pre-existing to their probing, all the pest inspectors are doing is *exposing* the "pre-existing damage".

    The above said, though, none of us can 'require' you do find "structural damage by probing" if you do not want to do any probing, however ... I can see a court case in your future because of the lack of probing ... but I am over here in Florida, so not to worry about it being me working for the other side (however, I do a lot of work over the internet in other states, and I may be traveling to Arizona in a few months as one case progresses that far (the plaintiff's attorney who I am working for says it won't get that far, the defense's attorney says it will ... we will see who ends up thinking they are holding the better hand before walking into court - few ever go in holding an Ace high straight flush, many *think* they are holding that hand, but few actually are holding even a six high straight flush ... some are holding four of a kind, then it depends on who has the highest four of a kind in their hand - I like to be on the side holding the four Aces if they do not have an Ace high straight flush (that beautiful 'Royal Flush' hand) or any other straight flush).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Russel,

    How you doing?

    I've been following this and the point being made by others is (if I am reading the posts correctly) that the home inspector, not the pest inspector, is looking for "structural damage/structural defects" and that already-damaged-structural-member is 'not damaged' by 'probing', the 'damage' was done by insects/organism/etc., thus probing is *not* "destructive testing", even the pest control inspectors are *not* doing "destructive testing" as the damage was pre-existing to their probing, all the pest inspectors are doing is *exposing* the "pre-existing damage".

    The above said, though, none of us can 'require' you do find "structural damage by probing" if you do not want to do any probing, however ... I can see a court case in your future because of the lack of probing ... but I am over here in Florida, so not to worry about it being me working for the other side (however, I do a lot of work over the internet in other states, and I may be traveling to Arizona in a few months as one case progresses that far (the plaintiff's attorney who I am working for says it won't get that far, the defense's attorney says it will ... we will see who ends up thinking they are holding the better hand before walking into court - few ever go in holding an Ace high straight flush, many *think* they are holding that hand, but few actually are holding even a six high straight flush ... some are holding four of a kind, then it depends on who has the highest four of a kind in their hand - I like to be on the side holding the four Aces if they do not have an Ace high straight flush (that beautiful 'Royal Flush' hand) or any other straight flush).
    Hey, Jerry. I've done and/or taken responsibility for over 11,000 inspections since October 15, 2001, with nary a single lawsuit. So I'll continue to take my chances since I tend to hire extremely good attorneys and tend to confer with the State of California and various business advisors about how to conduct my business in this state. As the State Pest Control Board representative told me, "Best to leave poking to the pest control professionals since they are licensed to do it and you're not." One other thing they said, and which I remind my clients about, is that practicing a profession without a license to practice that profession can be subject to severe civil and criminal penalties.

    Business is all about managing the expectations of your clients, and I seem to do that quite well.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    So I'll continue to take my chances ...
    That is what I said ... ...

    Business is all about managing the expectations of your clients, and I seem to do that quite well.
    Yes you have been doing that quite well, that is what I did all my years too "managing the expectations of your clients" ... I had them expect a lot from me ... then I gave them even more than they expected. I was always raising the stakes for inspections and what inspectors should be expected to do ... there were only three of us in that same 'expectation market' and we all helped each other, worked with each other, and created a competitiveness where we all had to keep doing more and raising the expectations for the other ... there was four of us at one time, but he feel behind, which left the three of us - then two of us retired within a year of each other, leaving one person to maintain that market ... it is far easier to create and maintain a market when there is competition than with just one person.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #23
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    it is far easier to create and maintain a market when there is competition than with just one person.
    Huh? I'm not sure I understand that, but I did pick up on the word "competition."

    When I started in October 2001, I counted something like 318 home inspectors. A couple of years ago when the market hit bottom, I counted fewer than half of that. The ASHI and CREIA dinner meetings were boring because so few people went to them anymore. What is really interesting is that all the people, like you, who told me back in 2001 that I would be a big failure have all quit, retired, or died. I'm still here, still have a very nice market share, and have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. My Clients are happy, and are coming back to me when they upsize or downsize. I also have a nice pool of Realtors who refer me on a regular basis. I get about one third Realtor referrals, one third from Internet searches, and one third from repeat Clients.

    So you do your thing and I'll do mine. Best wishes!


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    I've done and/or taken responsibility for over 11,000 inspections since October 15, 2001, with nary a single lawsuit
    Wow! That is quite an accomplishment. You must be going night and day and so busy you are like the one arm paper hanger with craps!


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,776

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Like Jerry I was watching where this posting would go.

    I would look at the OP as testing that became destructive, as there was a preexisting failure in the the item being tested, ie. the wood.

    As opposed to a destructive test which caused a failure, in undamaged material, where the expected/accepted limits were exceeded as it was stressed.

    SOPs were created to set the minimum expectations for an inspector, by inspectors that wanted to limit their liabilities to themselves a very self-serving exercise. The SOPs are offered as a standard, yet in court they are trumped by commonsense arguments.

    If you were to open/operate all of the windows in a house, as opposed to a representative number and one was damaged by applying reasonable pressure/force. Would if be considered a destructive test since there was resulting damage? No, since it failed under normal conditions.

    Wood, under normal operating/use conditions is expected to resist pressure that is applied to it. So if it fails under normal use then the test/use it is not destructive.


    Whether it is the person inspecting for WDOs or the home inspector that reveals the failure it is still there. Would it be the position of the owner that they wanted the condition hidden from the buyer? Or is the fault of SEARS and the Craftsman screwdriver that the wood was damaged since the screw driver should have failed before the wood.

    Also, is this a situation that the Owner would suggest that the Inspector caused damage to the property and is now responsible for the failed structural component and its replacement? Is this your argument for not poking wood or exposing a material failure?


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    I would look at the OP as testing that became destructive, as there was a preexisting failure in the the item being tested, ie. the wood.
    Which means it was not destructive at all - as you yourself said, "as there was a preexisting failure in the items being tested" ... the wood was bad before he even looked at it, and, if he had not probed it, the wood would still be bad after he looked at it. Probing did not destroy anything, no did it affect the wood in any way - other than the way it "looked" and that is not an indicator of something which is "destructive". I guess you could call it 'cosmetically destructive as the wood cosmetically looks worse than it looked before' ... but the wood is in the same condition it was before, only now it is easier to see.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #27
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Wow! That is quite an accomplishment. You must be going night and day and so busy you are like the one arm paper hanger with craps!
    Hey, Raymond. Do you not remember that from 2001 to July 2007 I had a multi-inspector company. From March 2003 to June 2006 I had nine employees and we were booming. However, having been through several real estate busts in my 45-year real estate career, I saw the signs, so when employees kept asking for six-figure salaries, and I declined, and they quit, I didn't replace them. When my franchise agreement expired, I didn't replace it either. Interestingly (or not), I make more money after taxes (and lost/stolen equipment) then I ever did with nine employees.

    I have the E&O liability for all those inspections, which is why I said that I have "...done and/or taken responsibility for...."

    I have learned how certain people on the Internet like to take things and twist them all about...........

    - - - Updated - - -

    I have been through all of these conversations not only here at InspectionNews since October 2001, but many other places, too (InterNACHI, ASHI, CREIA, FREA), with our Pest Control Board, my attorneys, my own E&O insurance advisor, etc.

    Nothing anyone is saying is new to me. I have to run my company in the manner which, according to my advisors, brings me the least liability.

    I also need to move on from this thread. I'm busy and it's eating too much of my time to go over things that have been hashed and rehashed to death over the years.

    Best wishes to everyone!


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,776

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Which means it was not destructive at all - as you yourself said, "as there was a preexisting failure in the items being tested" ... the wood was bad before he even looked at it, and, if he had not probed it, the wood would still be bad after he looked at it. Probing did not destroy anything, no did it affect the wood in any way - other than the way it "looked" and that is not an indicator of something which is "destructive". I guess you could call it 'cosmetically destructive as the wood cosmetically looks worse than it looked before' ... but the wood is in the same condition it was before, only now it is easier to see.


    Yes, exactly...


  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    Doing destructive testing like that here in San Diego would get me in serious trouble. Apparently destructive testing is reserved by law to licensed pest control professionals. Sadly, California does not have licensing for home inspectors, yet we license electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, roofing contractors, general contractors, painters, landscapers, even hair stylists. But not home inspectors..........

    CA does not lic. plumbers,painters,landscapers,HVAC techs, and if a electrician does not work for a C10 electrical contractor, they do not have to be certified which is a huge loophole IMO, general &
    engineering contractors are licensed as are the specialty trades as contractors. I would not call the certification of electricians a lic. they have categories they "certify" them under, General Journeyman Electrician, Residential Electrician,Fire/Life Safety,Voice Data Video,Non-Residential Lighting, and if the holder of a C10 electrical contractor works under their lic. they do not have to be certified, but if they work for for another C10 they do.

    HVAC techs need a EPA lic. to do their job legally.


  30. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Bennett (Denver metro), Colorado
    Posts
    1,394

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    - - - Updated - - -

    I have been through all of these conversations not only here at InspectionNews since October 2001, but many other places, too (InterNACHI, ASHI, CREIA, FREA), with our Pest Control Board, my attorneys, my own E&O insurance advisor, etc.

    Nothing anyone is saying is new to me. I have to run my company in the manner which, according to my advisors, brings me the least liability.

    I also need to move on from this thread. I'm busy and it's eating too much of my time to go over things that have been hashed and rehashed to death over the years.

    Best wishes to everyone!
    It sucks when you can't get anyone to agree with you.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    No. San Diego Co., CA
    Posts
    562

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Russel Ray View Post
    The home inspection, by every standard I've ever read, is a "visual inspection." Thus, at the advice of my real estate attorneys and my E&O company advisors, no, I don't "probe" wood joists for rot, termites, etc. Destructive testing for WDI&O is reserved by law to licensed pest control professionals. They usually do their inspections well before mine, and the pest control inspection is about the only disclosure document that I have any confidence in.

    I've been a home inspector in San Diego since October 2001. If we had licensing for our profession, our E&O premiums would be much lower. As it is, we're just a bunch of yo-yos having fun trying to destroy things like it's Christmas morning, putting our fun down on paper for other people to buy by, and then asking insurance companies to cover all the fun we're having.
    Russell
    Please read CA Business and Professions Code, sec.7195 - specifically (a) (1). "Home inspection is a noninvasive physical inspection..." Nowhere under State regulation does it limit the inspection to 'visual' only. CREIA, ASHI, InterNACHI et al may have that within their standard SOP but State regulation would likely dictate in any litigation, unless you follow and adhere to any particular organization's SOP. 'Noninvasive' could be interpreted to exclude probing but common sense dictates in much the same way as 'physical inspection' does not preclude the use of tools. I'm happy for the Pest Controllers to shoulder responsibility while I follow State guidelines. I seriously doubt any Court would conclude reasonable and limited probing would be considered invasive, certainly no more than using a pronged moisture meter.

    The difference within the previous posts is the distinction of 'probing for wood destroying issues' which in CA is the responsibility of State Pest Control versus 'Probing for the purpose of exposing (and documenting) the extent of damage' - the identification and or cause of which is also Pest Control's responsibility. In CA a Home Inspector, without crossing the responsibility threshohold, having observed potential damage and if necessary, probe to establish extent and photograph (document) accordingly for the purpose of client information. Not something the Termite guys typically do - not in my 20 plus year experience anyway. My reports defer to the Pest Inspection report for wood / rot /pest issues for identification and remedial action etc. but also does not preclude confirmation of any previously discovered issues or from identifying possible issues the termite inspection may have missed.

    Last edited by Ian Page; 05-20-2013 at 12:48 AM. Reason: clarification

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,776

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Page View Post
    Russell
    Please read CA Business and Professions Code, sec.7195 - specifically (a) (1). "Home inspection is a noninvasive physical inspection..." ................. but also does not preclude confirmation of any previously discovered issues or from identifying possible issues the termite inspection may have missed.
    Ian,
    I understand your desire to not be dragged into court.

    But, is it your contention that there would be some type of retribution by the State or the Home Owner for causing cosmetic damage to something that was already damaged and was a potential structural failure. What if the OP had used his hand and was able to produce the same effect as was done with the screw driver. Do you actually believe there would a viable cause of action against the inspector?

    Granted it would be more likely for a home Inspector to be sited, fined and thrown in jail by the State than being deported. Not a reflection on CA , but a view of Maryland government.


  33. #33
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    I have been inspecting most of my life and over a dozen years full time. I have stuck my finger in or screwdriver in or what ever was handy at the time any rotted looking, covered up looking wrinkled paint looking a bit suspicious looking wood or wood like product all my life while taking pictures with my finger stuck in or screw driver stuck in to that spot.

    Sued, asked to pay for, irate home owner....never


    You are not being destructive. You are not destroying. You are doing your job. Out of thousands of inspections how many times did you or your employees leave the client holding the bag. Never sued because you did not find all that rotted wood, trim, floor joists,sill plates etc..... who cares. You still were not doing your job.

    As far as leaving your client holding the bag...... on every single inspection.

    I have not retained a lawyer or ever been sued or ever asked a lawyer for legal advise in my business dealings in over 40 years in the work place working for myself and or others.

    Rehashed over and over again. It should be. You are there for the major part on a structural inspection. If the floor joists, sill plates wall or roof framing is rotted or bug eaten etc etc and you are not reporting it or even trying to find out you have been giving every single one of your clients the shaft and hiding behind some written foolish term.....visual. Well, a screw driver or a finger in something that is already damaged or destroyed is certainly a visual no one will forget and ytou will never lose a law suite over.

    Think about it and stop talking foolishness.

    Even in Texas termites and such are only suppose to be discussed or reported legally on paper by Pest control operators/inspectors. There is absolutely nothing anywhere about sticking a screw drive into rotted or bug eaten wood or your finger for that matter. If you see signs of insects talk to the termite folks about it so they do not miss it and tell your clients about it. Write that there may be signs of insect damage and follow up with a termite inspection company. rotted floor joists or framing members defer it to a contractor for cost of repair.

    Ignore it and pass it by and do not write or talk to your client about it


    Criminal.

    Stop trying to justify your fault with foolishness.

    Yeah yeah. Rant. So what. Deal with it. Don't ignore it.

    The screw driver or finger would not have pushed into it unless it was already destroyed.

    Get it.


  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    No. San Diego Co., CA
    Posts
    562

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Ian,
    I understand your desire to not be dragged into court.

    But, is it your contention that there would be some type of retribution by the State or the Home Owner for causing cosmetic damage to something that was already damaged and was a potential structural failure. What if the OP had used his hand and was able to produce the same effect as was done with the screw driver. Do you actually believe there would a viable cause of action against the inspector?

    Granted it would be more likely for a home Inspector to be sited, fined and thrown in jail by the State than being deported. Not a reflection on CA , but a view of Maryland government.
    Garry -
    ...Retribution....No, not really. I am merely pointing out the (CA) State's SOP and definition of what a Home Inspection is and what is expected of a Home Inspector, which may be considerably different than that imposed by any pay-to-join organization. The Pest Control Industry (with a strong and forceful lobbbying group) vehemently oppose ANY infringement on what they consider to be their area of expertise (only a termite guy knows how or where to stick a screwdriver into a rafter tail). Even to the point of exacting judicial action against non-qualified or unlicensed to practice 'Pest control' individuals. The State may find that person 'operating' without a license - even though he/she may be a licensed HI and just doing his/her job. I don't personally subscribe to such potential threats and perform my duties with the client's best interest in mind. I'm happy to run the risk, having done so for a couple of decades without issue.

    As I previously said, the State (CA) defintion does not preclude probing into the good, bad or ugly as long as it is noninvasive but the Pest Control Board might/could take issue.


  35. #35
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    Dry rot is pretty amazing in how good things look until you give it that little shove with a screwdriver.
    First picture is the beam. Second picture is the beam (same place) after a little stab with my screwdriver. Third picture is a good looking joist with the screwdiver buried to the hilt. Another amazing fact is the homeowner just had someone repair the foundation.Before.jpg.jpgAfter.jpg.jpgIMG_4910.jpg

    Seems everyone went off track on the pissing contests here and there. One thing I would like to mention here is that this is not caused by wood destroying insects so forget that. i can see in these pictures visible fungal/mold contamination. As someone who specializes in this I can easily tell you that this was caused by moisture reaching the crawlspace elevating the moisture levels within the confined space. Hundreds of possible paths for it to reach, but all sources need to be determined and corrected. Once settled spores have a moisture source they germinate, colonize and reproduce rather rapidly. Common errors in the world on the matter of the contamination is in moisture removal being the only necessity. The contamination is still there. The moisture in the wood framing is sufficient for the root of the fungi to draw from to continue to thrive and spread. When enough moisture is drawn from an areas the fungi will have hyphal growth present where searching for other areas to draw further moisture from. End result:The pictures you see and the structure of the home compromised. All areas of the contamination need to be found and written into a workable protocol for proper remediation to be done by qualified, reputable remediation contractor. Once the areas of contamination are corrected as well as sources of moisture, then a structural engineer needs to fully evaluate the damage to the framing and determine what corrective measures are required. (But in all the arguing not one post on here seemed to mention what was visibly apparent in all 3 photos and is the true cause of the damage to the framing!)


  36. #36
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    BTW, the black lines seen in the third photo is/shows the hyphal growth mentioned, not some insect shelter tube/tunnel/etc. Time for some education on indoor environmental hazards gentlemen! Makes all those arguments about years of inspecting and number of homes inspected a tad silly now eh when you all seemed to miss what is APPARENT in all photos provided by the original post.


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Don
    The thread title is "Amazing Dry Rot..."
    The first two words of the first post are "dry rot".
    So what is it you think everyone missed?

    As for the black line, could be a crack.
    It does stop at the knot.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  38. #38
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Don
    The thread title is "Amazing Dry Rot..."
    The first two words of the first post are "dry rot".
    So what is it you think everyone missed?

    As for the black line, could be a crack.
    It does stop at the knot.
    Conversation went from look at this "dry rot" to insect species and damage caused by such did it not? Not questions as to dampness of soil, presence of vapor barrier, is there adequate crawlspace ventilation, drainage issues, lack of gutters, etc.. No questions as to what needed to be done to rectify this, who to call who specializes in this etc. Just babbling on about insects. Don't get me wrong insects damage structures also, just not seeing any sign in those 3 photos.

    Wasn't reading anything about the bare soil exposed, lack of insulation beneath the floors, rusting and inadequately supported gas line, wiring on ground, possible dryer venting issues as I see a pile of lint in the first 2 photos, and there is a potential of lead in the solder of the copper water lines.

    On a more serious note the structure in those pictures is visibly decayed and unstable as seen by the bent/decayed beam and probing endangers the inspector at this point. Probing is absolutely a must for any inspector, but when you can see the decay and can accurately show in photos you should not take the chance at playing a large scale JENGA game above your head


  39. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    Conversation went from look at this "dry rot" to insect species and damage caused by such did it not?
    Well, of 38 post 4 mention insects.
    Most of the discussion was about probing wood.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace


  41. #41
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Well, of 38 post 4 mention insects.
    Most of the discussion was about probing wood.
    Kinda way off on that number as insect references were seen in multiple posts. But I actually have work to do and not looking for an argument in a public forum which further distorts the grand picture here. And am not going to spend the effort to list each post and references made. As stated earlier: the sub topics generated should have been about causes & correction of the fungal contamiantion, not insects and not about whether or not to probe visibly obvious deteriorated wood.


  42. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    As stated earlier: the sub topics generated should have been about causes & correction of the fungal contamiantion, not insects and not about whether or not to probe visibly obvious deteriorated wood.
    The OP wasn't asking a question, AFAIK. He found rot and identified the cause.

    He performed some serious probing and this lead to a discussion about probing. Mr Ray introduced the insect element as his reasoning behind not probing.

    If you want to discuss crawlspace moisture, go ahead and post something we can learn from.

    Re: "dry rot". We should avoid using this term. It is miss-leading, as the rot is caused first by moisture. The dryness, either powder or cubical chunks, is the result of a fungus drawing moisture out of the wood. As you know.

    Hidden Gems found in Victoria Homes

    Scroll down for 'probing rot' pics.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Ya know I think people who sign onto this forum should have the courtesy to provide a profile!

    I provide a profile out of courtesy as do others, but also to show I am not someone who comments without providing a background to see where I am coming from and/or my qualifications.

    Without a profile I wonder who these folks are and just what is there background is to be pontificating expert advice.

    Its easy to remain pretty much anonymous even if you do provide a name.

    No offence intended.


  44. #44
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    The OP wasn't asking a question, AFAIK. He found rot and identified the cause.

    He performed some serious probing and this lead to a discussion about probing. Mr Ray introduced the insect element as his reasoning behind not probing.

    If you want to discuss crawlspace moisture, go ahead and post something we can learn from.

    Re: "dry rot". We should avoid using this term. It is miss-leading, as the rot is caused first by moisture. The dryness, either powder or cubical chunks, is the result of a fungus drawing moisture out of the wood. As you know.

    Hidden Gems found in Victoria Homes

    Scroll down for 'probing rot' pics.

    Again, not trying for an argument as it sure seems the vast majority in here seem to be fixated on doing. When I see a post on dry rot and see 2-3 photos i would assume that this would turn out to be an informative discussion, not what it turned out to be. At least for me anyhow, can't speak for the rest of you on that.

    Now you are kinda off by saying that dry rot is a rot caused by moisture. That would imply that there is increased moisture present which caused this. The moisture source may have been at the furthest end of the crawlspace which caused the initial contamination and may have been corrected already. Many forms of fungus will grow and cause damage to wood framing with normal moisture content. I had to just write a letter for a client regarding this today who had paid $5k towards sealing the crawlspace and the installation of a dehumidifier, and has active growth apparent in many areas of the framing. In this situation the damage to the wood would be more caused from a lack of moisture which was drawn out by the fungi present. Dry rot is rot caused by fungi. Simply put.


  45. #45
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Ya know I think people who sign onto this forum should have the courtesy to provide a profile!

    I provide a profile out of courtesy as do others, but also to show I am not someone who comments without providing a background to see where I am coming from and/or my qualifications.

    Without a profile I wonder who these folks are and just what is there background is to be pontificating expert advice.

    Its easy to remain pretty much anonymous even if you do provide a name.

    No offence intended.
    Right is right, doesn't matter if coming from a 5 year old or practicing MD if the information is correct. You can fixate all you want on this guy may be right based on background, or you can take and research yourself as the information is out there and readily available in multiple sources/formats. But when you base information on a credential instead of research and fact you simply have a good trust in potentially the wrong information. "No offense intended" Then we are just back into the pissing contests and boasts about who's chests are bigger. There has been entire threads erased due to that in this forum and ignorance being spread. So forget relying upon someone's answer as being the best solution based on credentials without researching and confirming yourself or elsewhere with a second professional opinion. Many on here who have been deemed as experts have been proven wrong in areas of their expertise. It happens. Human error exists in us all. But to give you more of an idea who I may be I will provide a couple of my website pasted links being you seem to be so curious about it:
    Home Improvement Contractor | Repairs, Renovations & Additions-AGEL'S HOME INSPECTIONS
    www.environmentalhealthserviceinfayetteville.info/‎


  46. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Well, thank you. Thats a start. A home inspector and renovator and mould remediation all in one bundle.

    Now I understand where your coming from.

    I am suspicious by nature, even more so by anyone who comments on moulds and remediation because as many of us appreciate there is a lot of bull being stated on forums and the net about cause and affect and remediation which has become a money making scheme based on fear and misinformation.

    Indoor Fungal Habits
    Mould (Mold) Remediation


  47. #47
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Well, thank you. Thats a start. A home inspector and renovator and mould remediation all in one bundle.

    Now I understand where your coming from.

    I am suspicious by nature, even more so by anyone who comments on moulds and remediation because as many of us appreciate there is a lot of bull being stated on forums and the net about cause and affect and remediation which has become a money making scheme based on fear and misinformation.

    Indoor Fungal Habits
    Mould (Mold) Remediation
    LMAO Love the links you attached, ironically was one person I was referring to without pointing directly at. Kinda felt you forced me to bring that into light as you use his pages as a reference. Not the best one to cite.


  48. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    LMAO Love the links you attached, ironically was one person I was referring to without pointing directly at. Kinda felt you forced me to bring that into light as you use his pages as a reference. Not the best one to cite.
    I usually don't quote posts, but in your case I have made an exception.

    However I will take Mr. Connell's expert opinion and that of other experts in mould analyze and EPA any day over that of yours.

    Right is right, doesn't matter if coming from a 5 year old or practicing MD if the information is correct
    Oh I see, so being right is subjective in your view especially if it's your view.


  49. #49
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    I usually don't quote posts, but in your case I have made an exception.

    However I will take Mr. Connell's expert opinion and that of other experts in mould analyze and EPA any day over that of yours.

    Oh I see, so being right is subjective in your view especially if it's your view.
    Here goes that pissing contest of he said she said. You have a fight in you Raymond, just need to directly somewhere constructively. I do not wish to have an argument with you and you can have your belief that that guy is always right based on credentials. I have never posted mine publicly other than showing a company website as I have stated the statements should be taken and weighed for the information stated, not be weighed upon who stated it as there is a vast majority of incorrect information being fed out there to the public. Hence why I stated that who cares who is stating the information if it is correct. If that were the case then would not all globes and maps still reflect the flat planet we live in which is the center of the entire universe? Were not all experts bound on a theory which was wrong? You will have a rough life taking everyone's word without doing your own research to confirm if it is credible or not. That being the information and not the person providing it. Wasn't your alleged expert caught stating that bleach will be effective as a method of successful treatment of fungal/mold contamination on wood just to cite one?


  50. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Interesting pov. I don't only believe he is right based on his credentials I base it on his sound reasoning as presented here on this site. Further I believe him to be correct because other independent research sides with his views and experience.

    This is why I don't casually believe all that I am told or read. I strive to find the truth or the best info borne by 'my' research and reasoning abilities through experience and common sense, and education.

    We are coming at this from different sides of the fence. To state - "who cares who is stating the info if its correct," is an invalid arguement because you appear to be at odds with Mr. Connells testaments because you adamantly believe your own.

    Everyone should be concerned about the information, it really does matter that it is correct because too many folks have been taken advantage of by mould remediation companies based on the false premises eagerly being promoted as factual. Its all about the money. But having said that there are truly those who are influenced health wise by interior conditions either from mould or off gassing from man made products, et ceteras.

    As to the flat earth analogy, history tells us that the experts weren't experts per se because they were not scientists but theologians and could be punished by the church for going outside the confines of the churches dictates. Narrow beliefs without question is dangerous.

    The person providing the information is important as we all know of cases where someone who was thought to be an expert, turns out to be a very good con artist. So yes I do question the person not just the message.

    As to your question about using bleach as a treatment for mould I don't recall reading that. So I cannot honestly answer the question.


  51. #51
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    Here goes that pissing contest of he said she said.
    .
    .
    I do not wish to have an argument with you and you can have your belief that that guy is always right based on credentials.
    Seems to me that you are the one who tried to stir the pot for just such an argument, then, when you got the pot going, you say that your intention was not to stir the pot and get it going???

    Me thinks someone has a screw loose, and that it is someone who is:
    - Home Improvement Contractor
    - Repairs, Renovations & Additions
    - AGEL'S HOME INSPECTIONS
    - environmentalhealthserviceinfayetteville

    Seems like a lot of contradicting hats you are trying to wear there ... and that you may be getting dizzy switching hats so often ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  52. #52
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Seems to me that you are the one who tried to stir the pot for just such an argument, then, when you got the pot going, you say that your intention was not to stir the pot and get it going???

    Me thinks someone has a screw loose, and that it is someone who is:
    - Home Improvement Contractor
    - Repairs, Renovations & Additions
    - AGEL'S HOME INSPECTIONS
    - environmentalhealthserviceinfayetteville

    Seems like a lot of contradicting hats you are trying to wear there ... and that you may be getting dizzy switching hats so often ...
    Any respect I had for you was just lost Jerry, and there was a great deal of which was earned in the years of following your posts. But again to come out publicly bashing someones professional standing based on nothing other than your personnel feelings is unprofessional and rude. Perhaps you can limit yourself to concentrating on one area of expertise, I could not as I was starved to learn everything possible where ever possible from anyone willing to teach it. Each area of my expertise has helped strengthen and improve all other areas, not in boasts of paper, but in real life practice and refinement.
    But to bring yourself to this level of insulting in regards to someone you know nothing about is a tad immature don't you think? Was not my statement that this sort of behavior exists which distorts our view from the topic in case? Many times I have watched you take the high road and leave personal feelings aside citing facts rather than opinions. This time perhaps not. "me thinks someone............."


  53. #53
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    [QUOTE=Raymond Wand;226980]Interesting pov. I don't only believe he is right based on his credentials I base it on his sound reasoning as presented here on this site. Further I believe him to be correct because other independent research sides with his views and experience.

    This is why I don't casually believe all that I am told or read. I strive to find the truth or the best info borne by 'my' research and reasoning abilities through experience and common sense, and education.

    We are coming at this from different sides of the fence. To state - "who cares who is stating the info if its correct," is an invalid arguement because you appear to be at odds with Mr. Connells testaments because you adamantly believe your own.


    The conflicts between him and were in regards to his public attack on me and his incorrect information regarding bleach of which he was proven wrong. There were other issues as well, but this is all irrelevant to this posting. Frankly not about to entertain anymore debates about credentials and stand by my statement that the information on a public forum should be weighed on fact, not opinions considered fact based on the speaker's credentials. (Manufacturer's of Poly spray foam insulation have some great claims of longevity and safe green product do they not? I believe that 6 US states currently have Federal suits against these same manufacturer's for claims of adverse health effects of the installers and home occupants. Green product?) Therefore the most credible people may not be the most correct.


  54. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    [QUOTE=don agel;226993]Any respect I had for you was just lost Jerry, ....

    Don.

    Based on your posts to date ... no big loss ...

    But again to come out publicly bashing someones professional standing based on nothing other than your personnel feelings is unprofessional and rude.
    You came on like the bully trying to start a fight, and when someone stood to say something you disagreed in a way not unlike that which you are condemning ... maybe you need to do some soul searching and re-think how - and why - you came on with your posts ... or maybe not, but that would confirm that I am correct in my assessment.

    Convince me that your actions, attitudes, and intent were not as they came across in your posts - if you can - I have an open mind and I can *and do* change my mind when I am convinced that I am incorrect in my assessment of you and your intent.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  55. #55
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;226998]
    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    Any respect I had for you was just lost Jerry, ....

    Don.

    Based on your posts to date ... no big loss ...



    You came on like the bully trying to start a fight, and when someone stood to say something you disagreed in a way not unlike that which you are condemning ... maybe you need to do some soul searching and re-think how - and why - you came on with your posts ... or maybe not, but that would confirm that I am correct in my assessment.

    Convince me that your actions, attitudes, and intent were not as they came across in your posts - if you can - I have an open mind and I can *and do* change my mind when I am convinced that I am incorrect in my assessment of you and your intent.
    Didn't see in your credentials where assessing another human being and their intent was part of your resume. Perhaps I was reading one which was not updated? Not really sure why I need the soul searching. I didn't try bullying anyone and/or trying to start a fight. If anything I stated that the fighting on here is detrimental to the topics. So please don't try to bully people from posting on a public forum. Just because the site only shows limited posts and a couple months of membership doesn't mean I haven't been on here for years, just lost password information and few times. I can remember an argument you and I had several years ago regarding fire separation requirements in attached residential garages in this forum but have no way to go back that far on my end. But I am sure that will spark a little memory which may have you recollect the past postings. If not, oh well, I am not going to try to change or justify your unqualified, personal assessment of me which was not asked for by me. Just be advised that I will protect myself when attacked as I am sure most of us would, so lets keep this friendly and educational on the public forum. If you wish to argue in person, online, on the phone, etc. I will be more than happy to provide the necessary contact information.


  56. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    Didn't see in your credentials where assessing another human being and their intent was part of your resume. Perhaps I was reading one which was not updated?
    Do you list that in your resume? Is your resume that lightweight?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  57. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    ...so how do you plan on debunking the CDC, EPA, et al.. and many other sited sources which debunk your theories?

    1) The CDC Mold Work Group, National Center for Environmental Health, National Center for Infectious Diseases, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, October 2005

    2) EPA 402-K-01-001 March 2001 (updated 6/25/01)

    3) Chan CY, Robbins CR, Fallah P, Hardin BD, Kelman BJ, Risk From Inhaled Mycotoxins From Mold-Infested Produce, IUTOX ICT—Montreal, Canada (July 15-19, 2007) Abstract #PT6.105

    Just when do you plan doing what you promised to do -
    "TIME TO TAKE DOWN THE ALLEGED MIGHTY CONNELL"
    as stated in your private email? And how do you plan on disputing research papers and so forth and so on in your take down?


  58. #58
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Do you list that in your resume? Is your resume that lightweight?
    Again, is there anything relevant to the topic thread here you wish to discuss? If not, roll on past and insult someone else. Or is that your intent to feel superior by belittlement of others? I did not attack/insult you so I would expect the same respect.


  59. #59
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    ...so how do you plan on debunking the CDC, EPA, et al.. and many other sited sources which debunk your theories?

    1) The CDC Mold Work Group, National Center for Environmental Health, National Center for Infectious Diseases, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, October 2005

    2) EPA 402-K-01-001 March 2001 (updated 6/25/01)

    3) Chan CY, Robbins CR, Fallah P, Hardin BD, Kelman BJ, Risk From Inhaled Mycotoxins From Mold-Infested Produce, IUTOX ICT—Montreal, Canada (July 15-19, 2007) Abstract #PT6.105

    Just when do you plan doing what you promised to do -
    "TIME TO TAKE DOWN THE ALLEGED MIGHTY CONNELL"
    as stated in your private email? And how do you plan on disputing research papers and so forth and so on in your take down?
    Raymond, Here is where I draw the line. I sent you a private email stating that I had on file a copy of a posting on here between this guy and myself which had been wiped clean by the owner of the site. This was a personal invitation to review the copy and not continue to bash anyone publicly. You on the other hand want to start a fight and scream about it in the public forum when you didn't even review the file offered. Ignorance is not bliss, and you surely failed to read what was offered. This posting in question was posted and drew a great deal of views of which I believe ended within 24 hours afterwards with the deletion of the postings on the thread by the site admin. Which is fine, I agree that things became off track from the topic on point on that thread and became a personal argument between this guy and myself which should have been taken out of the forum and continues on a private correspondence level. I had 30+ calls from industry professionals both in the US as well as in Europe thanking me for what was posted. One of which works for the EPA. But I did offer you the chance at reviewing this. It was clearly written in the private email I sent to you as i did not want to further continue arguing in public such as was the case with Connell. But you could have responded with an email address so I could send you a copy of this posting as the size is larger than the private message file will permit on here. That heading of which you just copied and pasted was a heading on the post I left. It was already done, not planning on doing. Past tense! Guess you don't read what is written or sent to you and want to become enraged at whatever possible wherever possible. But again, this was not part of the original topic on this thread and was intended to be private.


  60. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Don your blabbering again, and you have repeatedly ignored higher authorities (sited sources) which dispute your reasoning(s).

    Facts are facts and you haven't presented any contrary views, or whether or not Mr. Connell was alleged to have stated to use bleach, which in the overall scheme of things does very little to add credibility to your opposing views.

    If you have a copy of his comment wherein he said use bleach, I want you to post it here. You made an allegation now prove it.


  61. #61
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Don your blabbering again, and you have repeatedly ignored higher authorities (sited sources) which dispute your reasoning(s).

    Facts are facts and you haven't presented any contrary views, or whether or not Mr. Connell was alleged to have stated to use bleach, which in the overall scheme of things does very little to add credibility to your opposing views.

    If you have a copy of his comment wherein he said use bleach, I want you to post it here. You made an allegation now prove it.
    Ok there dilbert let's review something. The only person you are claiming here as a higher authority than myself is Connell as I have ignored no one else on the topic of the postings with him and the topic of Bleach. SO again your blatant ignorance of matters of which you know nothing about are astounding. I, unlike Connell, had cited fact and listed references where as he had only his credentials to back his statements. So do you still wish to continue to argue about something you refused to provide an email address to read for yourself? Can't imagine the "expert" service you provide for your client seeing this in the forum. LOL time to grow up


  62. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    I will let you live in your delusional world.

    I have sited references and you have continually ignored the documents. How can Mr. Connell be so wrong when authenticated sources back up his expert opinions. Talk about being myopic.


  63. #63
    don agel's Avatar
    don agel Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    I will offer this much of that post publicly: The topic of argument in question at the time was Connell stating that Bleach was an effective method of eliminating fungal/mold contamination on wood and can be performed by any Joe handyman as fungal/molds are not of any concern. I proved him wrong and can offer this much publically being Raymond is whinning worse than my preschool child: This was posted on the site and was copied from the MSDS sheet on bleach so please tell me where I possibly disputed anything other than the unsupported claims of Connell and providing credible references to support my fact and prove my point and he had nothing other than an incorrect opinion:

    STRONG OXIDIZING AGENT: in contact with the following incompatible, oxidizable materials, chemical reaction will occur
    allowing hazardous gases to evolve: Ether, ammonia, acids, oxidizing agents, reducing agents, oxidizable or combustible
    materials such as wood, cloth or organic materials, heavy metals such as iron, copper, magnesium, aluminum, tin,
    manganese, zinc, chromium, nickel, and their alloys. DO NOT MIX THIS PRODUCT WITH ANY OF THE FOREGOING OR
    HAZARDOUS GASES CAN RESULT.

    This product degrades with age. Use it within one month of receipt. It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. EPA pesticides regulations apply, and EPA registration is required when using for disinfecting or sanitation purposes. THIS PRODUCT IS LISTED ON THE TOXIC SUBSTANCES CONTROL ACT (TSCA) INVENTORY OF CHEMICAL SUBSTANCES.


  64. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    I agree with the MSDS blurb. But again you are refusing to post wherein Mr. Connell actually stated what you claim he stated.

    Post his statement! So far its only hearsay.


  65. #65
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Amazing Dry Rot in the crawlspace

    Quote Originally Posted by don agel View Post
    I will offer this much of that post publicly: The topic of argument in question at the time was Connell stating that Bleach was an effective method of eliminating fungal/mold contamination on wood and can be performed by any Joe handyman as fungal/molds are not of any concern. I proved him wrong and can offer this much publically being Raymond is whinning worse than my preschool child: This was posted on the site and was copied from the MSDS sheet on bleach so please tell me where I possibly disputed anything other than the unsupported claims of Connell and providing credible references to support my fact and prove my point and he had nothing other than an incorrect opinion:

    STRONG OXIDIZING AGENT: in contact with the following incompatible, oxidizable materials, chemical reaction will occur
    allowing hazardous gases to evolve: Ether, ammonia, acids, oxidizing agents, reducing agents, oxidizable or combustible
    materials such as wood, cloth or organic materials, heavy metals such as iron, copper, magnesium, aluminum, tin,
    manganese, zinc, chromium, nickel, and their alloys. DO NOT MIX THIS PRODUCT WITH ANY OF THE FOREGOING OR
    HAZARDOUS GASES CAN RESULT.

    This product degrades with age. Use it within one month of receipt. It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. EPA pesticides regulations apply, and EPA registration is required when using for disinfecting or sanitation purposes. THIS PRODUCT IS LISTED ON THE TOXIC SUBSTANCES CONTROL ACT (TSCA) INVENTORY OF CHEMICAL SUBSTANCES.
    Sorry folks. I cannot resist.

    Bleach? Great product. I have been in and around construction all my life. I have used bleach and or other products all my life. Bleach works great. As far as not using bleach on wood products, CLOTH (seriously) or other organic materials???? You might as well ban bleach altogether. You just do not want to be in enclosed spaces with bleach. Proper ventilation and there is no problem.

    It does not get into the surfaces of the wood fiber where the roots are???? But it does continue to deteriorate for a while eating into those fibers???? I guess it gets into the fibers.

    Show me a timber that bleach destroyed and the timber failed. Oh, I am sorry, no one can.

    I am not pushing the use of bleach with the exception of the more minor usage. Personally it about chokes me to death in an open area. But, It does kill mold, period. It does get into the wood. That is one of the reasons they state not to use it. It breaks it down a bit. A bit!!!!! The surface.

    I have used it on timbers after tearing up a sub floor. Guess what. Those homes are still standing. It did kill off the mold growth. I also got rid of the contributing factors.


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •