Thread: Concrete work - Slab foundation

Would you say that having the exposed aggregate like this is (a) poor workmanship but does not affect the integrity of the slab, or (b) defective materials that can/will affect the integrity of the slab, or (c) fill in your own (practical) response ??

This is brand new construction.

Dave

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Dave:

The phenomenon you are seeing is commonly referred to as "honeycombing". Honeycombing can be recognized by exposed coarse
aggregate on the surface without any mortar covering or surrounding the aggregate particles. The honeycombing may extend deep into the concrete. It can be caused by a poorly graded concrete mix, by too large of a coarse aggregate, using unclean form boards, or by insufficient vibration at the time of placement. Honeycombing will result in further deterioration of the concrete due to freeze-thaw because moisture can easily work its way into the honeycombed areas. Severe honeycombing should be repaired to prevent further deterioration of the concrete surface. Most engineers recommend repair with an epoxy-resin patching material or "grout".

Aaron

EXTERIOR FOUNDATION:
: Exposed aggregate noted on foundation wall. Recommend parging. Parging may not be absolutely essential but wall is more vulnerable to water penetration and consequent deterioration. Mason recommended for repair.

I like Aaron's comments also.

Great info guys.
Thx

dave before you recommend the specialist( Mason) make sure you can determine the depth of this honey comb concrete. this is a monolithic slab and could effect structure above. may need to refer them to a foundation specailist or engineer. I know that sounds extreme but just throwing it out there.

Thanks Buddy.
Ironically, this was in Rock Hill where I see you are based.

What insight you don't provide in your message is what the significance would be for different depths (i.e., if only 1/16th inch then no biggie, but if 3/16th's then get the structural eval.). If you know, please share.

Dave

Dave I didn't put numbers because too many variables. Here's how I would look at. How far would you allow the bottom plate of a load bearing wall to extend past the edge of the slab before writing that up as needing structural evaluation. If the honey comb is surface only parging more than likely will be ok. If you are not comfortable about it error on the side of caution. Write it up. Refer it to a specailist! (ie licensed individual. contractor. engineer, or a foundation specailist.) This way you have met the standards and your covered.

I read a post a while back where an inspector was in hot water with a client due to the fact that he did not point out this defect and note the possiblilty of water entry into the basement, which did happen.

It's a slab, not a wall.

The honeycombing is likely just at the form interface and proves that the contractor didn't over wet the mix.

I've never seen anyone bother to vibrate the form boards on a slab.

Freeze thaw cycles aren't much of an issue in North Carolina and even if they were, a simple parget coating would fix the problem.

Parge isn't a word. Neither is parging.

There is no mortar in concrete. It's cement. What fills the void between coarse aggregates is called paste.

If you recommend an engineer look at that slab, you should be prepared to pay for his/her services.

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

Parge isn't a word. Neither is parging.

Chad - You might get some disagreement about that, but not from me, because I found the much-more-interesting phrase "bughole-induced outgassing" while checking out "parging".

Bughole-induced outgassing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

Freeze thaw cycles aren't much of an issue in North Carolina and even if they were, a simple parget coating would fix the problem.

Parge isn't a word. Neither is parging.

From the IRC.

R1001.8 Smoke chamber. Smoke chamber walls shall be constructed of solid masonry units, hollow masonry units grouted solid, stone or concrete. Corbelling of masonry units shall not leave unit cores exposed to the inside of the smoke chamber. When a lining of firebrick at least 2 inches (51 mm) thick, or a lining of vitrified clay at least 5/8 inch (16 mm) thick, is provided, the total minimum thickness of front, back and side walls shall be 6 inches (152 mm) of solid masonry, including the lining. Firebrick shall conform to ASTM C 27 or C 1261 and shall be laid with medium duty refractory mortar conforming to ASTMC199. Where no lining is provided, the total minimum thickness of front, back and side walls shall be 8 inches (203 mm) of solid masonry. When the inside surface of the smoke chamber is formed by corbeled masonry, the inside surface shall be parged smooth.

R406.1 Concrete and masonry foundation dampproofing.

Except where required by Section R406.2 to be waterproofed, foundation walls that retain earth and enclose interior spaces and floors below grade shall be dampproofed from the top of the footing to the finished grade. Masonry walls shall have not less than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) portland cement parging applied to the exterior of the wall. The parging shall be dampproofed in accordance with one of the following:

From the IBC.
1807.2.2.1 Surface preparation of walls.

Prior to application of dampproofing materials on concrete walls, holes and recesses resulting from the removal of form ties shall be sealed with a bituminous material or other approved methods or materials. Unit masonry walls shall be parged on the exterior surface below ground level with not less than 0.375 inch (9.5 mm) of portland cement mortar. The parging shall be coved at the footing.

Exception:



Parging of unit masonry walls is not required where a material is approved for direct application to the masonry.

parge

One entry found.

parge
Main Entry: parge
Pronunciation: \ˈpärj\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): parged; parg·ing
Date: 1701
: parget

parget

2 entries found.

parget[1,transitive verb]parget[2,noun]
Main Entry: 1par·get
Pronunciation: \ˈpär-jət\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): par·get·ed or par·get·ted; par·get·ing or par·get·ting Etymology: Middle English pargetten, from Middle French parjeter, literally, to throw out, from par- thoroughly (from Latin per-) + jeter to throw — more at jet Date: 14th century
: to coat with plaster; especially : to apply ornamental or waterproofing plaster to

Main Entry: 2parget Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : plaster, whitewash, or roughcast for coating a wall
2 : plasterwork especially in raised ornamental figures on walls

There is no mortar in concrete. It's cement. What fills the void between coarse aggregates is called paste.

And there is no cement driveway, it's concrete. Concrete and mortar have portland cement in them. The "paste" is cement and water, even the fines (like sand) are "aggregate". Concrete is "plastic" until it sets up (hydrates and cures), then concrete is no longer plastic.

Concrete does two things: 1) it gets hard; 2) it cracks.

irregardless

Main Entry:
ir·re·gard·less Listen to the pronunciation of irregardless
Pronunciation:
\ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\
Function:
adverb
Etymology:
probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date:
circa 1912


The fact that someone bastardized a pronunciation long enough for a word to make it to a dictionary does not prove it's a word.

Google "Masonary"

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

It's a slab, not a wall.

Parge isn't a word. Neither is parging.

There is no mortar in concrete. It's cement. What fills the void between coarse aggregates is called paste.

If you recommend an engineer look at that slab, you should be prepared to pay for his/her services.

Chad:

According to Webster's, American Heritage and Oxford English Dictionary the term parge, which is indeed synonymous with parget, has been in accepted use since 1701. Running a bit behind the times there in NC?

According to the American Concrete Institute's publication, "Cement and Concrete Terminology":

paste, cement

— binder of concrete and mortar consisting
essentially of cement, water, hydration products and
any admixtures together with very finely divided
materials included in the aggregates. (See also

cement paste, neat

.)

So then paste does contain mortar and is not the term we are looking for is it?

Again to the same publication:

grout

— a mixture of cementitious material and water, with or
without aggregate, proportioned to produce a pourable
consistency without segregation of the constituents;
also a mixture of other composition but of similar
consistency.

Now that sounds like what we want to fill voids, right? that's why we use grout to parge foundation edge honeycombing.

I have referred engineers to so many jobs that I've lost count years ago, and have yet to pay a single fee. NC must be a very strange construction experience . .

Aaron

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

... Concrete does two things: 1) it gets hard; 2) it cracks.

Bottom line ... that's it.

I won't carry those two comments beyond this post, but Jerry did provide me with a setup ...

It's a slab, not a wall.

The honeycombing is likely just at the form interface and proves that the contractor didn't over wet the mix.

I've never seen anyone bother to vibrate the form boards on a slab.


Chad Fabry, Rochester, NY
StructureSmart Home Inspections, Inc.
New York Home Inspection StructureSmart The Rochester NY Property Inspector

Chad. While your being piled on I will join in.
While you may not see many people vibrate the form boards most good concrete finishers will tap the outside of the forms with a hammer to stop this from occurring.
Here we use the word "Rat Hole" instead of honeycomb. I like it better.
By the way you are probably correct that the contractor did not over wet the mix. If you place concrete wet you probably would not get this.

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

The fact that someone bastardized a pronunciation long enough for a word to make it to a dictionary does not prove it's a word.

You don't think that being around since before

Date: 1701

is not long enough to make it "a word"?

That it is only "a word" if it has been around since:

Date: 14th century ?

In that case, you'd better throw out *ALL* code books, because I'm guessing there are *A LOT* of 'not-real-words' in them.

I'll concede parge to an extent. I have 17 different dictionaries. It appears in three. I must have only checked the other 14.

Aaron, cement is in mortar, mortar isn't in cement. Mortar is a mix of portland cement, hydrated lime and clean sharp sand. The cement to lime ratio determines the type of mortar.

I agree, tapping on the forms may have filled the voids. The reason they're at the form interface is there were no other irregular shaped objects to fill them: forms are flat, aggregate isn't. It's HIGHLY unlikely that the voids are elsewhere in the slab.

I'm not in NC, the poster of the question is in NC. I'm in Rochester, NY. We have freeze thaw cycles. Here, I'd suggest filling the voids to avoid an improbable, but possible issue.

In NC the issue is entirely cosmetic.

[quote=Chad Fabry;23869 I'd suggest filling the voids to avoid an improbable, but possible issue.
In NC the issue is entirely cosmetic.[/quote]

It's Ugly!

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

It's Ugly!

Thats why women wear cosmetics.

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

I'll concede parge to an extent.

I can tell you are not really conceding parge at all.

I have 17 different dictionaries. It appears in three. I must have only checked the other 14.

How many have the following words in them?

Plenum - (# of dictionaries you found it in out or your 17)

Firestopping -

Fireblocking -

Autoclaved -

Draftstop -

I can tell you are not really conceding parge at all.

I'm conceding.

But I must say I loved making you drag it out of me.

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

I'm conceding.

But I must say I loved making you drag it out of me.

Chad F,

Jerry:

I only mentioned the three most authoritative dictionaries. We forget that Chad is from New York. There they have their own 14 other different dictionaries just to try understanding the rest of us. Unfortunately, they must have left a few of our words out of those, while adding a few we've never heard of. And, they're w-a-y ahead of us up there, Jerry. We don't even stand a chance . . .

"One plunge in the might torrent is a year of tamer life." - Gilder

Aaron

While we are off topic: I'm a native Virginian and my family has been in Virginia since ca. 1656. We are being invaded from the North - Again! Not armies in blue, but people from "Up North" moving here to work. OK, there ARE a lot of fine regular folks among them. BUT its that 10% that have the audacity to poke fun or complain that WE talk funny, WE use funny words, phrases, and contractions; WE don't have all the great food, entertainment, and everything else like in, ________ *fill-in the blank*. Of course, they want to change everything to like it was back home. However, THEY ALL talk funny, THEY ALL have strange expressions. THEY eat weird concoctions. Just try to go up North and find a fine delicacy like freshly boiled fluffy grits (not those gosh awful instant kind) with a biiggg dab of country butter.

Well, Its been nice, but I've gotta go have me a looksee at a house down the hollar a piece. Ya'll have a good weekend you hear!


Stu
(The above comments are soley my own and in no way reflect the opinion or views of Inspection News or anyone else for that matter.)

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

While we are off topic: I'm a native Virginian and my family has been in Virginia since ca. 1656. We are being invaded from the North - Again! Not armies in blue, but people from "Up North" moving here to work. OK, there ARE a lot of fine regular folks among them. BUT its that 10% that have the audacity to poke fun or complain that WE talk funny, WE use funny words, phrases, and contractions; WE don't have all the great food, entertainment, and everything else like in, ________ *fill-in the blank*. Of course, they want to change everything to like it was back home. However, THEY ALL talk funny, THEY ALL have strange expressions. THEY eat weird concoctions. Just try to go up North and find a fine delicacy like freshly boiled fluffy grits (not those gosh awful instant kind) with a biiggg dab of country butter.

Well, Its been nice, but I've gotta go have me a looksee at a house down the hollar a piece. Ya'll have a good weekend you hear!




Stu
(The above comments are soley my own and in no way reflect the opinion or views of Inspection News or anyone else for that matter.)

Now that was good! Do not get discouraged they will be talking like you soon enough.

Originally Posted by Aaron Miller

We forget that Chad is from New York.

I'm from Nu Yark too, actually not all that fer from where Chad is (he is in Rochester and I was from 40 miles south of Buffalo - not like being from Nu Yark City).

However, I grew up (okay, maybe I never 'grew up' but I've 'spent most of my life') in Flawridah, so I tawlk funnier, being neither a Nu Yarker nor a Sautherner yet being both of them.

While I taint from Virginny, I've driven through there several times.

OK, time for ME to artificially inflate MY Post numbers by responding with something that has NOTHING TO DO with my Post:

From one Northerner living in the South (for 10 years now):

1) not all Northerners 'dig' on Southerners, even those that desperately deserve it
2) not all Southerners 'dig' on the Northerners, even those of us who think we know the ONLY way of doing things
3) The South is being hit with folks from the West, the Mid-West, and the Southwest, I see them every day
4) We should ALL be more concerned with the true "Invasion" OF our country, not WITHIN our country,

and finally
5) I think there's a nice "General Chat" room for all this jibber-jabber that makes a simple string go on and on and on and............

PS
Thanks to all who provided the constructive information I was seeking all along.

Aaron said:

The phenomenon you are seeing is commonly referred to as "honeycombing".Honeycombing can be recognized by exposed coarse
aggregate on the surface without any mortar covering or surrounding the aggregate particles. The honeycombing may extend deep into the concrete. It can be caused by a poorly graded concrete mix, by too large of a coarse aggregate, using unclean form boards, or by insufficient vibration at the time of placement. Honeycombing will result in further deterioration of the concrete due to freeze-thaw because moisture can easily work its way into the honeycombed areas. Severe honeycombing should be repaired to prevent further deterioration of the concrete surface. Most engineers recommend repair with an epoxy-resin patching material or "grout".

This ODNR FS 99-56 Dam Safety: Problems with Concrete Materials website said:

Honeycombing can be recognized by exposed coarse aggregate on the surface without any mortar covering or surrounding the aggregate particles. The honeycombing may extend deep into the concrete. Honeycombing can be caused by a poorly graded concrete mix, by too large of a coarse aggregate, or by insufficient vibration at the time of placement. Honeycombing will result in further deterioration of the concrete due to freeze-thaw because moisture can easily work its way into the honeycombed areas. Severe honeycombing should be repaired to prevent further deterioration of the concrete surface.

It just doesn't matter if you copy a response verbatim. It can still be wrong. When you do copy a response, it would be polite to cite the source.

Honeycombing isn't a phenomenon. It's quite common and explainable.


Chad said(and authored all by himself):

It's a slab, not a wall.

The honeycombing is likely just at the form interface and proves that the contractor didn't over wet the mix.

I've never seen anyone bother to vibrate the form boards on a slab.

Freeze thaw cycles aren't much of an issue in North Carolina and even if they were, a simple parget coating would fix the problem.

Parge isn't a word. Neither is parging.

There is no mortar in concrete. It's cement. What fills the void between coarse aggregates is called paste.

If you recommend an engineer look at that slab, you should be prepared to pay for his/her services.

OK. everyone got hung up on the parge part. I'll discuss that in a minute. The rest of my post is accurate. I should have used the term aggregates instead of "coarse aggregates" my bad..typo.

As far as parge goes: it is listed in several dictionaries. None of the dictionaries lists a definition. They all refer to "parget". All of the sources that do list the word list it as a transitive verb which means the term "parge coat" isn't correct, but "parge the wall" is OK.

Every dictionary lists parget and pargetted and parjetted. Everyone agrees that they are words and every dictionary shows a definition for those words. I think it's safe to say that they're the preferred terms. I do concede that parge is a word but almost everyone uses it incorrectly.

I'm blunt, I know that. I was in a hurry when I posted the first time and someone's feelings got hurt. I'm sorry for that but the thread was going into the realm of misinformation, and downright incorrect statements.

Instead of turning the discussion into an ad hominem attack, if you think I'm a jerk, say "Chad you're a jerk, here's why...... I don't mind being wrong. Well I mind it but I admit it when I am.

How's this: I'll use parge once in a while if everyone here refuses to say that there's mortar in concrete.

If Jerry had been watching the thread I would have just read it and moved on.

I'll end with this.

In my opinion, based on photos and description of the foundation style, there is absolutely no reason to call an engineer to review the situation. It isn't any more significant than sloppy [s]drywall[/s] gypsum wallboard finishing.

Peace and out

Originally Posted by Chad Fabry

I do concede that parge is a word but almost everyone uses it incorrectly.

The code uses "parging" a noun and "parged" as a verb (see my posts of code sections).

How's this: I'll use parge once in a while if everyone here refuses to say that there's mortar in concrete.

The only thing which has "mortar" (the type we are speaking of) in it is a masonry wall, and the "mortar" is between the masonry units.

Concrete has, as you've stated, "cement" in it. So does "mortar" (as in "portland cement mortar"). So does "stucco" (real stucco - portland cement stucco, also known as 'exterior plaster').

In my opinion, based on photos and description of the foundation style, there is absolutely no reason to call an engineer to review the situation.

Yeppers, that is correct.

I like ending discussions in agreement with others.

Originally Posted by buddy brault

dave before you recommend the specialist( Mason) make sure you can determine the depth of this honey comb concrete. this is a monolithic slab and could effect structure above. may need to refer them to a foundation specailist or engineer. I know that sounds extreme but just throwing it out there.

How can you tell if it is a monolithic slab from these pics...It wouod be good for me to know(since I dont have a clue)

Originally Posted by Tom Munds

How can you tell if it is a monolithic slab from these pics...

Tom,

First, Dave stated "but does not affect the integrity of the slab" so we know it is a "slab".

If that were not known, it would either be a monolithic slab or a basement foundation wall as it was formed and poured (placed as some like to call it).

Thus, if there is no basement, no one in their right mind (or their left mind either) would 'form and pour' a stem wall then separately pour a floating slab inside it, leaving the only other option as being a 'monolithic slab on grade'.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Thus, if there is no basement, no one in their right mind (or their left mind either) would 'form and pour' a stem wall then separately pour a floating slab inside it, leaving the only other option as being a 'monolithic slab on grade'.

This probably depends upon your climate. It is done all the time up here. The foundation walls are done in one pour and the slabs (usually for garage, basement, and family room) in another. Our footings need to be four feet below grade to protect against frost heave.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Tom,

Thus, if there is no basement, no one in their right mind (or their left mind either) would 'form and pour' a stem wall then separately pour a floating slab inside it, leaving the only other option as being a 'monolithic slab on grade'.

Jerry.
The house next to mine in Stephenville Tx. Some one did pour' a stem wall and inside floating slab. all the older homes in my area pier and beam except this one.

Originally Posted by Vince Santos

I read a post a while back where an inspector was in hot water with a client due to the fact that he did not point out this defect and note the possiblilty of water entry into the basement, which did happen.

I am that inspector and it did happen. I observed honeycombing in the outside of the basement foundation wall. I was not able to see the inside of the foundation wall because the sellers had conveniently framed a wall, installed batt insulation and covered the wall with plastic (in an obvious attempt to hide the leaking honeycomb). Honeycombing is not unusual but that is the first one I have seen on an inspection that went all the way through the foundation wall.

The honeycombing at the start of this thread is in a slab, not a foundation wall. It is difficult to determine how far this honeycombing goes back into the slab. Just as I will no longer state that honeycombing in a foundation wall is typically cosmetic I would suggest that the report address the honeycombing recommend further review or monitoring.

Originally Posted by Bruce Breedlove

The honeycombing at the start of this thread is in a slab, not a foundation wall. It is difficult to determine how far this honeycombing goes back into the slab. Just as I will no longer state that honeycombing in a foundation wall is typically cosmetic I would suggest that the report address the honeycombing recommend further review or monitoring.

Just so everyone is clear on what Bruce is saying... he is talking about a foundation WALL (as in a basement). Honeycombing is not anywhere near the problem with a slab foundation as it is with a structural wall for a basement.

Rich

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Thus, if there is no basement, no one in their right mind (or their left mind either) would 'form and pour' a stem wall then separately pour a floating slab inside it, leaving the only other option as being a 'monolithic slab on grade'.

Looks like I have to retract that, I've only seen CMU stem walls, not poured concrete ones.

Originally Posted by Richard Rushing

Just so everyone is clear on what Bruce is saying... he is talking about a foundation WALL (as in a basement).

Not necessarily a "basement", could be a stem wall, as I found out.