Thread: Mold on Floor Joists (Two Types?)

We purchased our home about 16 months ago. We knew there was a little mold in the crawl, but no serious standing water or structural problems.

I fixed two issues that were believed to be the causes of moisture down there. I installed vent wells (crawl vents were too close to the ground), and fixed a hose that was leaking a bit when turned on. I don't believe that there has been any moisture down there since the fixes. We figured fixing those two issues would fix the moisture problem, and we would get the crawl space cleaned by a professional down the road.

I went in the crawl space yesterday to check and make sure we didn't have any crazy mold growth or wet spots down there. Unfortunately this is the first time I have actually been down there, so I have nothing to compare to.

I took a few pictures, and would like to know anyone willing's thoughts. The wood feels hard. There are darker spots that definitely look like mold, of which we already knew about, and don't appear to be "eating" away at the wood. At least not quickly.

What I didn't realize until I started looking at the pictures, were the whiter looking spots. Wasn't sure if that could be white mold or not?

Money is tight right now, so that's why we're holding off a bit on getting everything fixed by an experienced water proofing company. However, I would like to know if anyone thinks this is something that is in DIRE need of fixing ASAP.

Thanks in advance..

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Appears to be a fungus which due to your damp crawlspace conditions could be taking a foot hold. However the definitive answer is to have it tested.

You have not told us several things, that may help us diagnose the damp conditions in your crawlspace. Mould loves cellulose (wood/food) and moisture, and right temperatures to thrive. Take one of the three requirements for mould away and it will cease growing.

1. Age of house?
2. Type of foundation - concrete block or poured concrete?
3. Grading is the soil sloped away from the foundation?
4. Downspouts discharging at minimum six feet from house?
5. Even though you have vents are there enough and are you getting cross ventilation?
6. Is there exposed dirt floor in CS without any plastic vapour barrier covering it?
7. Any odours such as mildew odour, or feeling of dampness?

James,
You live in a hot humid area, so this is pretty common. I see that growth in a good portion of every crawlspace I inspect. You have a small amount of growth.
In my area, they use a treatment where they spray on a product to kill the fungus. While, I suppose you could do it yourself, I would suggest you have professionals do it.

Personally, I wouldn't bother to test the fungus, I would just have it removed. But that is what I would do. You may want to know what kind it is.

You want to have a plastic vapor barrier that covers the entire crawlspace. If you can seal it to the foundation walls and piers, do it. Or hire someone to do it for you. That will go along way to stop fungus from growing.

There are various stages to drying crawlspace areas, from just installing the vapor barrier, all the way to making it a conditioned space. Of course, the dollar amount go up with each stage. A crawlspace waterproofing contractor such as MasterDry, or B-Dry can give you a lot more information.

If you can get you hands on a moisture meter, you might want to get some readings on the floor joists. If you don't know anyone with a meter, you can probably find an inexpensive one at Harbor Freight, or the big box stores. You don't really need a fancy one for this. You would like the joists to be less than 20% or so.

Many homes in my area have the vents blocked, a vapor barrier installed, and a dehumidifier with sump pump (for the dehumidifier) installed. This seems to control the fungus growth pretty well. This is kind of stage 3 of fixing crawlspaces. Stage 4 would be a fully conditioned crawlspace.

Obviously, this is all assuming you have taken steps to keep moisture and run off away from the foundation. However, this (small) amount of growth is more likely coming from the hot humid air flowing into the crawlspace during the hot months.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

1. Age of house?
2. Type of foundation - concrete block or poured concrete?
3. Grading is the soil sloped away from the foundation?
4. Downspouts discharging at minimum six feet from house?
5. Even though you have vents are there enough and are you getting cross ventilation?
6. Is there exposed dirt floor in CS without any plastic vapour barrier covering it?
7. Any odours such as mildew odour, or feeling of dampness?

1. Built in 1965
2. It's a crawl space, so not a concrete block or poured concrete.
3. Grading - soil is sloped away from the foundation.
4. I believe there is one downspout not discharging far from the house. We planned on putting a rain barrel there.
5. How do I tell if I'm getting enough cross ventilation?
6. There is plastic down, but some areas near the edge of the crawl space were not completely covered. I could feel the dirt, which seemed cool and dry. Hard to tell the difference between cool and wet, but it definitely wasn't WET.
7. No odor that I noticed. Really didn't see or feel any dampness.

Thanks Raymond.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

James,
You live in a hot humid area, so this is pretty common. I see that growth in a good portion of every crawlspace I inspect. You have a small amount of growth.
In my area, they use a treatment where they spray on a product to kill the fungus. While, I suppose you could do it yourself, I would suggest you have professionals do it.

Personally, I wouldn't bother to test the fungus, I would just have it removed. But that is what I would do. You may want to know what kind it is.

You want to have a plastic vapor barrier that covers the entire crawlspace. If you can seal it to the foundation walls and piers, do it. Or hire someone to do it for you. That will go along way to stop fungus from growing.

There are various stages to drying crawlspace areas, from just installing the vapor barrier, all the way to making it a conditioned space. Of course, the dollar amount go up with each stage. A crawlspace waterproofing contractor such as MasterDry, or B-Dry can give you a lot more information.

If you can get you hands on a moisture meter, you might want to get some readings on the floor joists. If you don't know anyone with a meter, you can probably find an inexpensive one at Harbor Freight, or the big box stores. You don't really need a fancy one for this. You would like the joists to be less than 20% or so.

Many homes in my area have the vents blocked, a vapor barrier installed, and a dehumidifier with sump pump (for the dehumidifier) installed. This seems to control the fungus growth pretty well. This is kind of stage 3 of fixing crawlspaces. Stage 4 would be a fully conditioned crawlspace.

Obviously, this is all assuming you have taken steps to keep moisture and run off away from the foundation. However, this (small) amount of growth is more likely coming from the hot humid air flowing into the crawlspace during the hot months.

Thanks Jack. That's what I was thinking of doing, was hiring some professionals to come out and clean. I believe the projects I did with fixing the leaking hose and the vent wells have stopped any significant moisture problems down there, so I was thinking that having it cleaned, then waiting to see if it came back, would be my best option with money tight right now.

The company that came out originally wanted to put in an extensive waterproofing system, sump pump, and dehumidifier. The estimate was easily over $2k I believe, and it just all seemed like overkill for not having any visible water problems down there anymore.

Is there any reasonable argument against just having it cleaned, then seeing if it comes back?

This is a very informative article on crawlspaces.

New Light in Crawlspaces | Building Science Corporation

The biggest mistake most home owners make when they discover what they think is mold. The only real qualified inspectors are those specifically trained and members of INDOOR AIR QUALITY ASSOCIATION OR ACAC. Most people hire a contractor to inspect the possible mold situation. and repair the situation. This is wrong and any contractor who does his own inspections and remediation is self serving. The proper method to to have a qualified inspector as mentioned above (usually under the direction of an environmental hygieneist or micro biologist. The inspector samples the mold (tape test and or ERMI Test 99.9% accurate, and air quality. The inspector writes a report directing the QUALIFIED remediation contractor to speific work. There are no sprays which can be applied to areas containing spores or pathogens in hopes of eliminating. What is most concerning is preventing returning spores causing mycotoxin poisoning. The test samples should be sent only to a lab certified to test "MYCOTOXINS' test tests are expensive ERMI $249.00, Hygienist Inspector $750.00. Varies in different areas. Most insurance cos may allow up to 3500.00 for such procedures.If you dont follow these procedures you just lost the game. You may pay dearly. Asperguillus is not something to mess with.

40yrs ago no one knew anything about asbestos. To date thousands have died as a result. The same applies to mycotoxins.

Michael Arnke
Investigator & contractor 40 yrs,
Specializing in Defect& Causation.

You want a tight seal on the poly vapor barrier for it to block moisture from the ground. You can get a nice 20 mil poly membrane laid down under there. You don't need a sump pump, I gather, from what you say.

The mold growth can be wiped off with a cloth. Keep the vents clear and check once or more times a year. Store the stand for your Xmas tree down there. That will force you to check your crawlspace twice each winter. []

For the age of the house, that looks like a healthy crawlspace to me.

If that is from 1965 till now, I wouldn't really worry much about it…

James

2. It's a crawl space, so not a concrete block or poured concrete.

The foundation has to be made of something?

4. I believe there is one downspout not discharging far from the house. We planned on putting a rain barrel there.

Bad idea. In my experience people use them with intent for watering garden(s). However most folks neglect them and water overflows against foundation. Also Mosquitoes get in and become breeding ground. Best practice is to extend downspout out minimum 6 feet.

5. How do I tell if I'm getting enough cross ventilation?

Vents should be a equal number on both sides of the foundation based on square feet of the crawlspace floor.

6. There is plastic down, but some areas near the edge of the crawl space were not completely covered. I could feel the dirt, which seemed cool and dry. Hard to tell the difference between cool and wet, but it definitely wasn't WET.

Seams need overlapping and taped/sealed. Plastic should go up foundation walls and sealed in place. Soil will fee dry but will release water vapour into the area all year.

The new researched proven method to deal with crawlspaces is described in the link I provided to Building Science. You might give consideration to doing what they suggest. It will also make your living area warmer in winter months.

Well, I can reply to several comments or suggestions made here individually, but that would be a long post, so I will just generally comment on the overall post.

Not trying to burst anyone's bubble, I totally understand that education is super lacking in the Mold industry, just trying to help some understand that "old ways are no longer the right ways" and doing it the "industry acceptable" way will keep you out of the court room!

I live in, am a Building Science Expert in and an Indoor Environmental Professional in : A Cold Climate Region!! SO, my approach to crawl spaces is not equal to most any approach in the lower 48, however it does mimic several areas of Canada and a lot of what is starting to be standard practice in some states that get real winters.

We condition our crawl spaces by having NO exterior ventilation. We insulate the foundation walls both inside and out and install an exhaust fan controlled by a humidistat with makeup air from the interior of the home. We also install a 100% "sealed" vapor barrier. If this sounds odd to anyone please refer to the "Cold Climate Housing Research Center" in Fairbanks AK for the reasons, they all have been well studied and are proven to be by far the best method for both a healthy long term crawl space and energy efficiency (keep in mind, cold climate!). Insulation in the floor joists here will rot them out faster than you can finish the construction! A key point would be: failure to 100% seal the vapor barrier is a waste of time and money, moisture doesn't stop at a layer of plastic and stay there, it migrates its way around until it finds that opening, not sealing the barrier around the entire perimeter and at all protrusions is simply "not controlling any moisture".

MOLD: Please do not reference and or relay information on mold remediation that is antiquated, outdated and flat out proven incorrect by modern science and practices. Mold can not simply be "killed" and left in place! Wiping it off simply removes spores (putting more in the air than in the rag) and leaves behind the roots to start a new growth. Calling it "normal" within the building envelope is litigation looking for a court room to loose your case in! Mold can be a health issue for some and is definitely a building deterioration issue for all! It has to be REMOVED to include the roots or your wasting your time and money. Proper remediation practices such as the IICRC teaches is the only proven way to remove mold from a structure without high risk of return. Leaving behind roots and/or if the moisture issue isn't corrected then its a no brainer, "dat mold be right back"!

Companies who claim to "kill" or spray a magic chemical on the mold to solve your problems are ripping you off! They are following antique practices proven ineffective. keep in mind also, any attempt to "encapsulate" the mold is just trapping it in place and allowing it to grow under the encapsulate until it eats its way through, usually long enough down the road you end up with twice the remediation costs and/or a structural issue. Encapsulation is 100% taboo in this industry.

TESTING: As a professional I can't say "yep, that's mold" until the lab confirms it's mold (legal issue). The standards are clear, test the living area to assure there is no migration of the released spores that could cause a health issue. This also gives you a "baseline" to hold the remediation company too for a post test after the removal. Nothing worse than a post test that fails and no pre-test to know if the air problem existed or not prior to the work. If it was clean to start it should be cleaner at finish! If not, then the remediation company owes you a full house remedial cleaning, for free! Testing is the cheapest insurance you will ever buy!!!

Again, not starting an argument, anyone who wishes to have a civil discussion about this, have at it or start a new thread and I would be happy to join in.

Sometimes some think to deeply


I complete a IAC cert, discussed mold or mould for us Canuks, and how to remedy/remediate mold with astute IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) certified inspectors and companies that remedy both chemically and organically on David Snell Facebook & LinkedIn Groups.

plastic spray bottle.JPGPPE cheap.JPGhepa mask.JPG

I concur with Scot post #8 BUT, that does not mean things have not changed since then.

What would I do?

Remedy with Borax or a Borax Vinegar solution.

A: You require a small spray bottle no more.
Expenses: Borax or Borax and Vinegar, $6.00?
Spray bottle. Dollar store item.
$5.00 if you wish not to be seen in a dollar store, ha ha ha.
B: HEPA mask, latex gloves. Can't find latex gloves? Ask Hannibal Lecter.
C: Self-containing PPE environment, suite yourself.
Duct Tape seal at suit and gloves. boots and suite.
About 60 bucks for everything. Bet cheaper in the US or NC were you live.

1: Clean: Dry Clean: Vacuum off the suspect organic growth. Why waste money to test for white mold?
Hepa Filter in a shop-vac.

2: Wet Spray: Remedy with Borax or a borax vinegar solution.

(The filter goes in a garbage bag at the end along with all your PEE protective clothing , mask. gloves and goggles.}

Wash hands and face with clean light soapy & vinegar water and clean water afterwards!
Clean you rubber boats if there is lots of water, no fishing until the job is completes. Clean your rubber boot and after you leave the crawl space as well.
Gees Louise, I have to reply using my glasses. Boats?

3: Seal: Test the wood after for moisture 2 days later.
When wood is below 18% moisture seal the wood and steel.

Next job: Seal the crawl space.
Wait for spring to pass.
Come back to the forum or research how you can care for crawl spaces.

You can email me personally. Love to help.

I would like to point out a few things:

1. This is not an argument, however I speak from factual evidence, participation in EPA studies, case studies we have produced that changed the EPA official statements on mold and my experience from thousands of remediation projects and dozens of court room testimonies!
2. Any methods describing the use of chemicals or borax, vinegar, etc are in fact the basis to several court cases I have testified in, the "professionals" that used them lost!
3. Never ever ever say anything like "its just white mold"!! Who in their right mind can look at mold and tell you what kind it is? Is it ubiquitous or is it not? Is is a mold that is known to be an extreme health issue or is it not? Etc..

Please, do not follow old "wives tale's" about mold remediation and these magic products (including natural products) that "kill" the mold simply by wiping it off with a mystical solution. If you take a class that teaches you to use viniger, borax, etc.. then you took a class based on long gone methods well proven by science and case studies to be completely ineffective. If your going to botch the whole project and just wipe mold off of the surfaces then just use soap and water (amended water), at least your not exposing yourself to chemicals that way. But I would have to ask after your done, what did you do with the roots??? Like a dandy lion in the yard, if you cut it with the mower it just comes back, 10 fold!

The point is simple, either leave the mold there and forget about it until you go to sell the house or maybe are sick of paying doctor bills for illnesses they can't figure out. Or. Remediate the mold properly so the roots are also removed and then apply the anti microbes and finish up the crawl space with a sealed vapor barrier and other methods to prevent moisture issues that can eventual lead to the return of new mold growth. Your choice!!!

What I can tell you with all possible assurance and certainty; It is your house and you can do anything you want, but, if you plan to sell in the future, you might want to put the effort into doing it the right way the first time while you can do it yourself. If you have the issue come up during a sale you may be forced into paying for a professional remediation company to do the work, that cost a lot of money.

It may be different in Canada, I will find out the end of this month. Our annual training and meeting of IAQ professionals is in Phoenix and for the first time we have Canadian friends coming to the classes since the Canadian government recently realized that Mold is in fact an issue and the methods followed here in the USA (such as the IICRC S520) are in fact the only way to deal with mold in buildings.

I do this every day, it is my primary work, I have over 12 years of experience with thousands of mold remediation projects (I don't remediate, I am the oversight IAQ Pro and consultant) and I am the recognized instructor and professional consultant for my state. Following modern practices proven by science is the only way to keep yourself and your family safe, or, in the case of a property ownership transfer it's the only way to keep your sale out of a court room!

I also relay standards and give out advise for free, you can email me anytime. support@advancelookak.com.

I am sorry you took the post that way.
It was not directed at you, but seeing you are here, and without the drama, Never ever ever say anything like "its just white mold"!! Can you point to where someone said that?
Three simple questions were asked. 1: What can I do. 2: Not much money. 3: Thoughts please.

If one thing I am aware of are SCARE TATICS and expert witnesses to create new industries.

Patric, I am always eager to learn.
Borax (Na₂B₄O₂(H₂O)₁₀) is a low-toxicity mineral with insecticidal, fungicidal, and herbicidal properties.
Now I am to understand that borax is not a good remedy in some situations?

Also, "Any methods describing the use of chemicals or borax, vinegar, etc are in fact the basis to several court cases I have testified in, the "professionals" that used them lost! "

Broad statement. Many a defendant, or plaintiff for that matter, lost their case due to the fact that one expert witnesses outperformed the other expert witness and the judge thus left swimming in scientific article after article, but that is a discussion for another day.

So if there are court cases you wish to share I am sure many here would love a good read. Just to see if any defendants had expert witness. Easy pry if they did not I think.

I follow CMHC guidelines for mould and also

Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I follow CMHC guidelines for mould and also

Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home

Maybe we can get CaoimhÃ*n to comment on Patrick's posts and information?

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

I follow CMHC guidelines for mould and also

Forensic Applications Consulting Technologies, Inc. - Home

Ray, as always thanks.
That will be used in my next report when I observe and photograph any suspect organic growth.

The funny thing is though the vendors say during a brief assessment, "I never knew. I never go up there." As well as the elephant in the room thinking I am heavy handed with my mycelium colony - hyphae observation which includes "recommend evaluation by a qualified IAQ specialist." Other than that I never get to see the root of the problem.

I am sure they feel as one previous poster wrote "The point is simple, either leave the mold there and forget about it until you go to sell the house, or maybe are sick of paying doctor bills for illnesses they can't figure out."
Hypothesis; Maybe that is why they are selling the house, so and I want my clients to have a solid recommendation by someone with a bit of background on the subject.

Jerry, Irish language?

Car 54 to CaoimhÃ*n. Where are you?

There you go Jerry; the call is out.

Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG

Jerry, Irish language?

What?

Blimey ... my lederhosen and bagpipes didn't disguise my Irish brogue enough to confuse you into thinking I'm a limey? (Was that confusingly twisted enough? )

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Car 54 to CaoimhÃ*n. Where are you?

There you go Jerry; the call is out.

I sent out an email invite ... but your "Car 54. Where are you?" is probably even better.

Mould and Your Health - What you need to know for a healthier home: Information for First Nations Community Members [Health Canada, 2010]

Clean the surface

Wipe the surface with a rag dipped in the soapy water
Sponge with a clean, damp rag and dry quickly
Do not allow the drywall to get too wet

CMHC recommends same procedure.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Mould and Your Health - What you need to know for a healthier home: Information for First Nations Community Members [Health Canada, 2010]



CMHC recommends same procedure.

During a group with David Snell he invited a remediator to a group session.
First he asked all that attended, what would they think of only water used to remediate mold?
Pressurized water.
Thank went over like a lead balloon.

It was not long before the hygienist and other true specialist, started cynically heckling before the company owner before he/she arrived to answer questions.
In business over 1.5 decades with a proven tract record or so we where told.
The session was called of due to the misunderstanding of procedures to remedy.

On large projects in my neck of the wood dry ice is used to blast off the interior colony.
They even get to the root of the problem so to speak.

Remember Mike Holmes episode were he and the crew sanded off mold off a plywood attic. ha ha ha. The men did not even use Hepa masks and PPE.
Good old make it right Mike.