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Thread: Holes in TGI

  1. #1
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    Default Holes in TGI

    Looking at these pictures, it appears to me that the holes in the TGIs are too large. If that is the case, how would you repair them? New Construction.

    Thanks, Jim

    100_8482.jpg100_8485.jpg

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Someone sure ruined those TJI joists.

    Time to call in a structural engineer for a signed and sealed repair letter ... and (more importantly than that engineer's design letter) ... a signed and sealed letter stating that the repairs have been done in accordance with the design letter.

    That first letter is one many get, but it does not mean diddly squat.

    That second letter is one few get, but it is the only one which means anything.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Someone sure ruined those TJI joists.

    Time to call in a structural engineer for a signed and sealed repair letter ... and (more importantly than that engineer's design letter) ... a signed and sealed letter stating that the repairs have been done in accordance with the design letter.

    That first letter is one many get, but it does not mean diddly squat.

    That second letter is one few get, but it is the only one which means anything.
    Thanks so much Jerry. I can always count on you!


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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Click on the "Installation Guide" at this website to see what is allowed:

    http://www.woodbywy.com/trus-joist/

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Huggett View Post
    Click on the "Installation Guide" at this website to see what is allowed:

    http://www.woodbywy.com/trus-joist/
    Thom is on the right track, inform (arm) yourself with specifics. However I believe those are BCI's. Check install instructions from the product used. They will specify the max hole size and type, that can be placed in the webbing and where. However other than the "knockouts", I don't believe any manufacturer allows bludgeoning an opening of any size....maybe a recip saw was used.


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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hagenlock View Post
    However other than the "knockouts", I don't believe any manufacturer allows bludgeoning an opening of any size....maybe a recip saw was used.
    Precisely my point.

    The manufacturers allow "cut" holes, round, square, or rectangular - and TJIs typically have pre-cut holes which are permitted to be "knocked out" - none allow whacked out hammer holes even remotely like what is shown.

    When you see holes as shown in the photo - time for an engineer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Someone sure ruined those TJI joists.

    Time to call in a structural engineer for a signed and sealed repair letter ... and (more importantly than that engineer's design letter) ... a signed and sealed letter stating that the repairs have been done in accordance with the design letter.

    That first letter is one many get, but it does not mean diddly squat.

    That second letter is one few get, but it is the only one which means anything.
    I got perplexed with acronym TGI looking that the image of the wood I-joist.
    They can not be modified, notched or bored unless an engineer gave permission.

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    I got perplexed with acronym TGI looking that the image of the wood I-joist.
    They can not be modified, notched or bored unless an engineer gave permission.
    TJIs can have holes CUT (which includes drilling) into their webs as permitted by the manufacturer without any additional engineering.

    However ... once an opening is knocked out with a hammer (other than manufacturer knock outs) ... an engineer needs to design appropriate repairs and approve those repairs after completion.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    TJIs can have holes CUT (which includes drilling) into their webs as permitted by the manufacturer without any additional engineering.

    However ... once an opening is knocked out with a hammer (other than manufacturer knock outs) ... an engineer needs to design appropriate repairs and approve those repairs after completion.
    That is what I understand.
    Perforated or stamped knockouts must be knocked-out as to not damage the web and remain within the Perforated or stamped knockouts circumference.
    Upper and lower cords/flanges can not be modified unless it follows the manufactures or engineers recommendation/s.
    If the ends are bearing they may require filler backer/blocking to stiffen the web.


    Double TJI
    Unfortunately when I point this out, others have differing opinions than the manufacture.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 09-23-2016 at 03:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    In the second photo it looks like the I-joist may be very close to a band joist. If that is the case and the sub-flooring spacing is acceptable, it may not be an issue. Assuming the holes do not comply with manufacturer's requirements (the second one does not appear to), then gluing and screwing a piece of OSB to the web would be acceptable. Of course, that may require moving the piping. I believe a metal repair plate is manufactured for some repairs like that. I don't recall whether it can be installed around existing pipes.


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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    The first one may be ok, but the second picture is definitely no good. If the holes do not match those allowed by the manufacturer in size and location, whether cut or knocked out, they are no good and the I-joist must be replaced or have a fix designed by a registered engineer. Opinions don't matter.

    Trus Joist installation guide: Weyerhaeuser :: Trus Joist

    Boise Cascade installation guide: https://p.widencdn.net/jsdfr2

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Looking at the second photo again, it looks like it may be possible to move the conduit or CSST over and reinforce the web without removing things (depending upon how far from the end this hole is located).

    Here is an example of a manufactured reinforcement for use when other methods may not work or where moving/removing pipes, etc, is not practical.

    Joist Reinforcers


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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    Looking at the second photo again, it looks like it may be possible to move the conduit or CSST over and reinforce the web without removing things (depending upon how far from the end this hole is located).

    Here is an example of a manufactured reinforcement for use when other methods may not work or where moving/removing pipes, etc, is not practical.

    Joist Reinforcers
    This is still a fix that must be designed by an engineer.

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Huggett View Post
    This is still a fix that must be designed by an engineer.
    I agree that any repair to an I-joist should be designed by an engineer, unless the manufacturer provides a repair detail. Some manufacturers have published details for certain repairs. In some cases they will also design a repair (usually new construction).


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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    From TJI.
    Covers much of installations.
    http://www.woodbywy.com/document/tj-9001/

    Good luck.

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    As others have already mentioned, download the manufacturer manual, read it, reference a few appropriate pages of the manual in your report so your client knows where to read for a basic understanding.
    Beyond that call for an SE report. I don't really like calling for an SE report unless really necessary because of the cost. Buyers don't usually do it and neither the seller or buyer often even understand what an SE report really says in plain english. In this case though who knows what other damage was done to those joists.

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    I don't really like calling for an SE report unless really necessary because of the cost. Buyers don't usually do it ...
    I put it on the seller to have it done (if it is done) ... and if it is not done, the buyer gets a credit for the cost of having it done plus a questimated cost for the work ... or the buyer can use that to walk from the contract - and "walking from the contract" typically means turning back around and saying to the effect of 'Okay, now we know such and such is not right, I will revise my offer to ... and we start a new contract.'

    At which time the seller has two choice: lose the sale; accept the terms for that item.

    I always explained to my clients that whoever wants or needs the deal the most ... loses on any negotiations, so my clients were given the opportunity to go into the inspection already knowing if they would win (if they were willing to walk away) or it they would lose (if they were "in love with the house" and not willing to walk away). The last option was beyond my control, but at least my clients knew their options.

    ... and neither the seller or buyer often even understand what an SE report really says in plain english.
    Yep, but whether the client does or not does not matter, what matters is that second signed and sealed engineer's letter stating that the work was done in accordance with their engineering design.

    If that second letter is not obtained, the first engineer's letter is meaningless as all it says it "this is how you need to FIX it' ... it is the second letter which says 'it was FIXED how I said to do it'.

    I have various things to FIX on my 1983 Jagaur XJS, but until those things are FIXED ... it is meaningless. (Here is my latest FIXED project: http://jerrypeck.com/1983%20Jaguar%2...m%20Repair.pdf )

    If it ain't FIXED ... a letter stating how to fix it means nothing.

    Added with edit: Oh, and no engineer's letter was needed for this fix.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 09-23-2016 at 08:54 PM. Reason: Added "Added with edit" part
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I put it on the seller to have it done (if it is done) ... and if it is not done, the buyer gets a credit for the cost of having it done plus a questimated cost for the work ... or the buyer can use that to walk from the contract - and "walking from the contract" typically means turning back around and saying to the effect of 'Okay, now we know such and such is not right, I will revise my offer to ... and we start a new contract.'

    At which time the seller has two choice: lose the sale; accept the terms for that item.

    I always explained to my clients that whoever wants or needs the deal the most ... loses on any negotiations, so my clients were given the opportunity to go into the inspection already knowing if they would win (if they were willing to walk away) or it they would lose (if they were "in love with the house" and not willing to walk away). The last option was beyond my control, but at least my clients knew their options.
    Jerry, interesting concept. You are a purest.
    Many ramifications can be construed from the statement." put it on the seller that...fix, update, further evaluation, SE, make coffee"

    For every reported article, CD Horizon reporting software has a section in the recommendations, For the homeowner, For the purchaser in the in the Cost / to Cost section at the end of each recommendation component. I have never used those recommendations although I have wanted to on several occasions.

    A: Where do we legally find ourselves?
    B: Where do we morally find ourselves in doing so?

    It is a challenging place to find one self and there might likely be push/blow-back...

    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Robert,

    Legally, we find that we should be reporting everything we see.

    Morally, we find that we should be reporting everything we see.

    There should be no separation by the inspector of "homeowner" and "purchaser" items - the inspector should be reporting what they see ... the contract between the homeowner and the purchaser is what divides those items. The inspector is not a party to that contract.

    One of the best things that a homeowner can do to protect their interests is a full and complete seller disclosure ... have you ever seen a full and complete seller disclosure?

    Everything on the seller disclosure is technically off the table for the purchaser as their offer was made, and accepted, based on the knowledge on the seller disclosure.

    Likewise, everything not on the seller disclosure is technically on the table for the purchaser as their offer was made, and accepted, based on the knowledge on the seller disclosure.

    Works both ways.

    The inspector puts everything they see on that table.

    The contract divides it up ... along with the buyer being willing to accept some things and the seller being willing to address some things.

    Remember, everything is only worth what a willing buyer and a willing seller agree at.

    The home inspector's job is to educate their client - typically the buyer - about what the inspector finds.

    Morally, ethically, legally - the home inspector has a duty to their client, and only to their client.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Probably should have expanded on my previous post a bit for clarification. I work at providing clients with relevant information they can and/or will actually use. In terms of an SE report it runs $1000+ around here to start. That's often times difficult for buyers and sellers to work out. Nonetheless it is for them to work out somehow.
    I was originally taught 'You write what you see'. So many guys today like to make judgement calls on what they will or won't write for their own expediency. They figure they can not include all the little deficiencies in their report because those are 'minor' issues and thereby get their reports done faster. Doing so doesn't serve the client, doesn't give the client a true picture of post purchase costs and puts your reputation on the line.
    However you want to interpret moral or legal obligation is up to you. Either way we should be serving our clients as best possible by giving them information they can understand and use.
    I only know how it works around here so your area may be different. I spend a fair amount of follow up time reading and destroying Seller response letters to buyers about inspection findings. Most of the letters are most likely put together by a combination of the Sellers attorney and the savvy agent. The letters usually have that politician feel to them. Answers sound good, potentially plausible under the right set of variables but don't have any meaningful substance to them. Just had another one last week that was a good sounding load of crap. The problem with 'putting it onto the Seller' around here is that unless the buyer has someone to call (me, their own savvy agent, DIY brother in law, etc.) they are likely to get screwed. Its stunning to me (shouldn't be) how many phone calls I get from buyers asking me for information about issues when they can't get their check box idiot inspector on the phone to answer questions. For minor issues putting it on the Seller can be fine. For any major a Buyer either needs to get credits or specify the repair so that they get what they should. This thread is a good example of insufficient or proper buyer requests that are often an issue during negotiations.
    - "Seller to provide workmanlike, quality repairs to TGI joists by qualified carpenter or contractor"
    Under that request the Buyer is open to getting a basic crappy repair that may or may not work
    - "Seller to provide compliant structural repairs to damaged TGI joists at all locations as per the manufacturer's repair specifications in the current manufacturer data manual as outlined in Chapter X of the manual. All work to be done by a licensed and qualified carpentry contractor. All work to be done with applicable Municipal permits."
    Under that request the Buyer is more likely to actually get what they should.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    I spend a fair amount of follow up time reading and destroying Seller response letters to buyers about inspection findings. Most of the letters are most likely put together by a combination of the Sellers attorney and the savvy agent. The letters usually have that politician feel to them. Answers sound good, potentially plausible under the right set of variables but don't have any meaningful substance to them. Just had another one last week that was a good sounding load of crap.
    My reference to the seller disclosure is that is the dividing line between what the seller tells the clients (naturally, that means the truth of what is known) and what the seller hides from the client.

    I have never seen a seller disclosure which revealed anything of substance, like you said, it is all just hogwash .. but ... that means things like 'Any roof repairs? No.' and there is a bucket of roof cement on the roof blows the seller out of the water, or 'Any leaks? No.' means that turning on the master bath spa tub and it leaks into the downstairs ... is not the inspector's fault or their liability as the seller 'should have disclosed it'.

    There are many reason for the seller disclosure, and those reasons for the seller (if filled out correctly) are things like 'Any roof repairs? The roof needs to be replaced.' and the buyer cannot act like they were not aware of it, it is presumed (by the contract) that the cost of the roof is addressed in the agreed up on sales price. The inspector still inspects the roof, but when the inspectors says 'Replace the roof.', the buyer should already be aware of it.

    Yes, I have had the buyer claim to not be aware of it - they had not read the seller disclosure ... that was not the seller's fault, the buyer goofed up ... but there were so many other things wrong (it was a knock down) that the buyer walked.

    What we do is for our clients, what our clients do is beyond our control. And sometimes what the clients do it totally off the wall and stupid, but there is nothing we can do about that.

    I had a client who told me 'If I understand your report, the house is a knock down, but it looks to nice and is within a block of the ocean - if we don't buy it, my wife will be very dissatisfied and I will regret it ... and if I do buy it and she later realizes what a mistake it was, my wife will be very dissatisfied and I will regret that too ... what should I do?' My reply was to do what you think will make your wife happy and grit your teeth with the consequences when they happen.

    That client called me a year later and his wife realizes what a mistake it was, that they are going to have to knock the house down and build a new house there. As long as one has the money for things like that, go for it (pay off a $million mortgage so you can demolish the house and then build a new one).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Thumbs up Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    I have various things to FIX on my 1983 Jagaur XJS, but until those things are FIXED ... it is meaningless. (Here is my latest FIXED project: http://jerrypeck.com/1983%20Jaguar%2...m%20Repair.pdf )
    I am impressed that you were able to "fix" that veneer! I wouldn't believe it could be done!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thom Huggett, PE, SE, CBO

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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    MFG website will give Allowable hole size and location, most I-Joist companies also have an 800 number for their engineered wood products that can give you an answer...
    There are also some metal "reweb" I-Joist reinforcement plates that may be used to repair the damage iff allowed by the I-Joist manufacturer....


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Holes in TGI

    Quote Originally Posted by Thom Huggett View Post
    I am impressed that you were able to "fix" that veneer! I wouldn't believe it could be done!
    Thom,

    Thank you, it was a challenge to undertake and complete it, yet it was also fun ... in its own way.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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