batt insulation - no vapor barrier - InspectionNews

Robert Alexander · #1 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 09:07 AM

This is first time I have seen batt insulation installed in crawlspace that did NOT have a vapor barrier (paper or foil face) at all. Usually I expect to see this and it is installed toward heated side of home (of course).

Is this Ok?

Jerry Peck · #2 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 09:35 AM

From the 2006 IRC.

- SECTION R318
- - MOISTURE VAPOR RETARDERS

- - - R318.1 Moisture control.

In all framed walls, floors and roof/ceilings comprising elements of the building thermal envelope, a vapor retarder shall be installed on the warm-in-winter side of the insulation.
- - - - Exceptions:
- - - - - 1. In construction where moisture or freezing will not damage the materials.
- - - - - 2. Where the framed cavity or space is ventilated to allow moisture to escape.
- - - - - 3. In counties identified as in climate zones 1 through 4 in Table N1101.2.

I suspect that each of the exceptions above apply to the area you are referring to.

First, you are in Climate Zone 3, which means exception 3 applies.

Second, exceptions 1. and 2. look like they will also apply.

Gunnar Alquist · #3 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 01:31 PM

Unfaced insulation is the standard in my area.

Robert Alexander · #4 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 02:14 PM

Perfect. Thanks Jerry.

John Arnold · #5 (**permalink**) 10-17-2008, 02:16 PM

Gunnar - The apostrophe troll? First of all, you haven't told us the answer to "What is the circumference of a moose". Or is that a Zen koan, like "what is the sound of one hand clapping"?
Does the apostrophe troll pop up when people write "it's" inappropriately? As in, "I seen this moose the other day, and it's circumference was unmeasurable"?

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add to the actual subject of this thread.

Terry Beck · #6 (**permalink**) 10-18-2008, 09:32 AM

Robert,

Aside from Jerry Peck's authoritative code answer (thank you), my experience leads me to recommend against faced insulation in vented crawlspaces. You also have to understand that I live in a cold climate with moderate levels of seasonal humidity.

Specifically for the insulation installed at the rim joists. I have inspected countless number of crawlspaces that may look fine initially, but I have learned to always pull the fiberglass batting away from the rim joists for an extra look. Many, many homes will have at least some discoloration from condensation trapped against the rim joists by insulation with vapor barrier, and sometimes the beginning (or worst) of wood rot. Even with unfaced fiberglass batting, it still appears, but to a lesser extent. I saw one house with a 4-yr old addition where the rim joists were completely rotted out (there were muliple problems there though).

I don't find as many problems with insulation installed on the underside of the sub floor, but still do find it sometimes. Plus, about 99% of the people that do install fiberglass batting on the underside of the sub floor, like to install it upside down with the vapor barrier facing the crawlspace, not the floor.

I have begun leaning toward recommending some sort of rigid foam board sealed with caulking at the rim moist, or spray on foam insulation, to prevent the intrusion of moisture ladder air against the joists. But even there, the jury is out. These effects of course will vary based on local climate.

Gunnar Alquist · #7 (**permalink**) 10-18-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Gunnar - The apostrophe troll? First of all, you haven't told us the answer to "What is the circumference of a moose". Or is that a Zen koan, like "what is the sound of one hand clapping"?
Does the apostrophe troll pop up when people write "it's" inappropriately? As in, "I seen this moose the other day, and it's circumference was unmeasurable"?

Sorry, I have nothing useful to add to the actual subject of this thread.

John,

Someday I will have a good answer for the moose circumference.

Yes, I have started whining about improper use of the apostrophe and might start pointing out improper word usage again. I think Billy Stephens labeled me "the apostrophe troll" in the "cool room" thread, and I gleefully adopted it.

Things like their/there and your/you're drive me nuts.

I know, I should probably get a life, watch some football and mellow.

Jerry Peck · #8 (**permalink**) 10-18-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Things like their/there and your/you're drive me nuts.

I don't know, Gunnar, those things, along with hear/here, site/cite/sight, and all the other drive me nuts too (as well as to/too/two). One would think that HIs would have, and us, a spell checker, being as proper grammar in their reports is typically indicative of their professionalism (or at least taken as representing their professionalism by their readers).

I'm not an English Major, and in fact hated English so much that I found away around taking it seriously in high school, but still, we should know how to write, being as writing is so much of what we do (and add ad/add and do/due to that list of things).

Billy Stephens · #9 (**permalink**) 10-18-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

.
I think Billy Stephens labeled me "the apostrophe troll"
.

.
Somebody Must Have Been messing around on my System ( Again ! )
*better get on the phone with tech support.
.

Gunnar Alquist · #10 (**permalink**) 10-19-2008, 03:31 PM

JP,

Thanks for that. I agree with your comments regarding professionalism as well. I realize that someone's knowledge of construction and the various systems is not necessarily related to his/her ability to write, but I do feel that knowledge of the proper word (to/too/two), grammar and spelling is important as it does reflect on that individual's care and dedication to her/his profession as well as the profession as a whole.

Billy Stephens · #11 (**permalink**) 10-19-2008, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

JP,

Thanks for that. I agree with your comments regarding professionalism as well. I realize that someone's knowledge of construction and the various systems is not necessarily related to his/her ability to write, but I do feel that knowledge of the proper word (to/too/two), grammar and spelling is important as it does reflect on that individual's care and dedication to her/his profession as well as the profession as a whole.

.
New Avatar for your new signature.

.

Brandon Chew · #12 (**permalink**) 10-20-2008, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I don't know, Gunnar, those things, along with hear/here, site/cite/sight, and all the other drive me nuts too (as well as to/too/two). One would think that HIs would have, and us, a spell checker, being as proper grammar in their reports is typically indicative of their professionalism (or at least taken as representing their professionalism by their readers).

I'm not an English Major, and in fact hated English so much that I found away around taking it seriously in high school, but still, we should know how to write, being as writing is so much of what we do (and add ad/add and do/due to that list of things).

(my bold)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

JP,

Thanks for that. I agree with your comments regarding professionalism as well. I realize that someone's knowledge of construction and the various systems is not necessarily related to his/her ability to write, but I do feel that knowledge of the proper word (to/too/two), grammar and spelling is important as it does reflect on that individual's care and dedication to her/his profession as well as the profession as a whole.

Eye halve a spelling checker
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques for my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it to say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
It's rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
Eye am shore your pleased two no
It's letter perfect awl the weigh
My checker tolled me sew.

Jim Zborowski · #13 (**permalink**) 10-20-2008, 02:28 PM

maybe we should just type in the psycho abreviations that teens do in their I-M's...................4 = for, waddup = whats up, kind of like that.

Gunnar Alquist · #14 (**permalink**) 10-20-2008, 03:15 PM

Brandon

Gud won.

Billy Stephens · #15 (**permalink**) 10-20-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Zborowski

.
...............4 = for, waddup = whats up, kind of like that.

.
Or even less typing .

.

Mike Schulz · #16 (**permalink**) 10-26-2008, 06:21 PM

Gunnar, Hola, no ablo english. No hablo mucho español. So please correct me when I am wrong. Gracias por su ayuda.

Gunnar Alquist · #17 (**permalink**) 10-26-2008, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Schulz

Gunnar, Hola, no ablo english. No hablo mucho español. So please correct me when I am wrong. Gracias por su ayuda.

'Choo becha!

bruce m graham III · #18 (**permalink**) 10-27-2008, 05:19 AM

My father inlaw was a big stickler for grammer and such, I would always get with "irregardless" . You could just see the fire in his eyes sometimes.

I miss that old boy

Jerry Peck · #19 (**permalink**) 10-27-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce m graham III

I would always get with "irregardless".

"irregardless" is like a double negative.

"ain't got no", which actually means "you got some".

"irregardless" means without without regard, or, with regard.

irregardless

One entry found.
Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912
nonstandard : regardless
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

Gunnar Alquist · #20 (**permalink**) 10-27-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce m graham III

My father inlaw was a big stickler for grammer and such, I would always get with "irregardless" . You could just see the fire in his eyes sometimes.

I miss that old boy

grammar, not grammer.

Jerry McCarthy · #21 (**permalink**) 10-27-2008, 06:04 PM

FWIW "Fowler's Modern English Usage" is my go-to book when I'm not sure if I'm using our language correctly.