Thread: Leaking bathtub

This is a leaking bathtub, second floor. No stains, no water visible on floor. Would have walked right past it. Dodging bullets...

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Was your determination based upon anything other than the IR image?

Same question as Eric's.. or ditto.

Obviously the exterior wall / ceiling junction of a tuck under garage so if it was a leak couldn't it have been coming from the exterior? Possibly siding or window? Or even an opening in the wall's vapor barrier which has created a large amount of condensation? What makes you say bathtub without other investigation?

Originally Posted by Eric Barker

Was your determination based upon anything other than the IR image?

What...? You guys doubting my skills? I have a method for this.
BTW, my determination was based on the obvious. After I located this, the seller cut a hole in the ceiling and there it was. Didnt tell him to, but "he just had to know". Oh yea, after I spotted the stain in the IR, I followed up with my moisture meters. I use two different meters, just to rule out most false +'s.
I have more like this..
I scan prior to running any water..then I run the water for 15+ minutes. Trade secret...Shhh

So you didn't actually confirm a bathtub leak just by using the IR camera as you implied in the first post.

Originally Posted by Ken Rowe

So you didn't actually confirm a bathtub leak just by using the IR camera as you implied in the first post.

Huh? Yes. I scanned the bottom. Saw the discoloration. The seller cut the hole. We saw it leaking. I would say that is a confirmation from the IR camera. You cant "confirm" a leak with a tool that measures heat. Just observe. Then use another tool to narrow the possibilities and apply experience.
FYI, all the other pics were all taken this month & repaired and were also confirmed second story bathtub/shower leak.

Originally Posted by Marc M

What...? You guys doubting my skills? I have a method for this.

Marc, It's my nature to doubt and be anal.

Originally Posted by Eric Barker

Marc, It's my nature to doubt and be anal.

No worries, here's another for you. These are two from today. One is from testing the shower pan and water coming from under the pergo adjacent to the pan, and the other was under a tub. I assume the tub leaked based on my expert anaylsis, but could not confirm.
Have no idea with the shower.

Marc
I'm sure you have posted this before but what IR equipment are you using?

Ian,
we're using the Fluke TI32. I'd probably re think the purchase if I could do it again....
I think using IR is a great way to limit your liabilities as an inspector. If not for anything else. But, you dont need to spend $7-8-9 K to get these results. The smaller 1500-2500 units work just as good, just the image quality isnt. Her's an example... Actually, this image is too small to get a good idea..but you get the picture.(no pun intended)

Thanks for the info. and insight.

Ian,
I dont want to give you the wrong impression about this tool. I was actually referring to using this specific model for HI...Industrial IR inspections are a whole different conversation. The TI32 is perfect for this.

Marc
I certainly see their value - being very aware of liability issues. A few more inspections and I should be able to afford the deposit. Do you typically charge for using it or is it just another tool in the bag - for your own edification.

Originally Posted by Ian Page

Marc
I certainly see their value - being very aware of liability issues. A few more inspections and I should be able to afford the deposit. Do you typically charge for using it or is it just another tool in the bag - for your own edification.

For HI, it is just another tool in the bag. We do have contracts to inspect roofs and assembly lines etc... which we get paid for. We did pretty well last year as an "add-on" to HI but not as a stand alone business. I've made my money back on the camera. I'm thinking about getting a smaller unit for HI, I hate having to subject the TI to daily wear & tear with HI without getting reimbursed for it.

Here's a pretty good pic..

Marc
Good pics. Was any of what the image revealed visible to the naked eye? Did you suspect any issues before the IR camera was used?

Originally Posted by Ian Page

Marc
Good pics. Was any of what the image revealed visible to the naked eye? Did you suspect any issues before the IR camera was used?

Good question. Yes and no. Sometimes there is discoloration at the stab connection, or on the insulation plate. And other times nothing. But more times than not, when there is discoloration, there are issues. below for example...
Now with that being said, I would say that Challenger main disconnects are more frequently hotter than others. And after my inspection, and after the electrician inspects the panel, they (most of the time) replace the main if the bus is not damaged, and save it for me. There are fewer times where there has "not" been an issue than has been.
Not all IR scans I do, where there is a hot disconnect present represent an issue. Load etc.. has to be factored in as well. Stuff you know i'm sure.

Shower pan today, viewed from the adjacent closet. Another notch in the tubstopper.

Marc
Good pic. and very convincing. Was this issue detected by any other sense before you used the IR ? Or did the camera substantiate the condition already detected?

No, not really. Didnt see anything obvious. I actually scan around and under bathrooms prior to and after my inspections. I only do this because i dont have the time to go inch by inch with a moisture meter. It's only after I see a potential issue that i use the MM, in this case i just pulled the carpet back and there it was. here is the pic that i saw that alerted me to the issue initially.
I used a grey scale inverted image to better see the water.

Thanks. The IR certainly seems to be a worthwhile tool but I'm not sure (other than from the potential liability of missing something standpoint) that it is a cost-effective investment. Perhaps other users can attest to any additional return by charging more for it's use or whether it is just used as a 'selling' feature for the business. I would like to have one, however. I just wonder about stuff I may have overlooked or which was hidden by a fresh coat of paint or newly installed floor covering.

Originally Posted by Ian Page

Thanks. The IR certainly seems to be a worthwhile tool but I'm not sure (other than from the potential liability of missing something standpoint) that it is a cost-effective investment. Perhaps other users can attest to any additional return by charging more for it's use or whether it is just used as a 'selling' feature for the business. I would like to have one, however. I just wonder about stuff I may have overlooked or which was hidden by a fresh coat of paint or newly installed floor covering.

I agree completely...great tool mostly to reduce liabilities. That said, it is also a great tool to locate issues that help our clients.
Some HI's charge more to make their money back, however, there are those of us (like me) who do not. Like I mentioned before, commercial applications is where you will likely make your money back, at least more quickly than residential. However, with that said; it's all about creating a need. It "is" a fantastic selling feature for sure.
HaHA, I think wondering about stuff that you may have overlooked is just part of this business. Its pretty difficult to know everything, so when you learn somethng new, its natural to wonder about all the hundreds/thousands of houses you did before this one.
I do have to say; I find leaks pretty frequently so the camera helps. Like I said, its worth spending the money, but for just a tool, I'd just spend less of it.

I have been using IR for 12 years and I would not want to do an inspection without it. The cost of the cameras today are nothing compared to the cost 2 years ago and if you go back ten years the cost will seem to be extremely low in comparison.
Factor in the capabilities and more importantly the knowledge that is available about thermal imaging and its applications and you have a very valuable tool.
In the end it is always about knowledge isn't it.

I disagree about the liability issue, the standards of practice I work with clearly state it is a visual inspection, the standards are incorporated into into the inspection contract. One could make the argument that you are increasing your liability by using specialized equipment.

Absurd on its face. If that was true every tool in your bag could present its own liability issue.
With IR there is only an enhanced visual inspection and at some point you must let the customer decide if they want the service.
We do use a contract agreement that spells out its use and limitations just as we do with any inspection.
Supplied as a supplemental service where charges are extra, get the contract signed and inform the client as to the proceedure and reporting that will be applied.
IR is not a stand alone diagnostic tool and many techniques ( depending on the situation ) are used to verify indication of defect or anomolies.
Have you any first hand knowledge of anyone using IR in the building inspection side that has been sued?
I personaly have not met or talked with anyone who has been sued.

Originally Posted by David J. Smith

the standards of practice I work with clearly state it is a visual inspection,

"a visual inspection"

So, as such, you do not carry ANY tools of ANY type with you, correct?

Not even a flashlight, nor a ladder, nor a screw driver, nor ... any other tool.

Now we are stretching it in the other direction.

The tread started off by stating that a bullet was dodged because of an infrared camera, by the standards of practice there was no bullet to dodge.

Our standards were recently changed to state that if there is a is an indication of a water leak then it must be tested with a moisture meter, which meant all the inspectors who did not already have a meter had to go out and buy one. The test result has to be mentioned in the report.

The infrared camera may be useful and have its place but some here are coming off as infrared camera salesmen or trying to make a sale to a client.

I can't remember a case where an infrared camera would have avoided a call back.

Just out of curiosity and from a business stand point how much time does an IR inspection add to the overall inspection? How much extra do you charge? I have heard some provide their clients a recording of the IR inspection, does anyone do that?

Originally Posted by David J. Smith

the standards of practice I work with clearly state it is a visual inspection,

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"a visual inspection"

So, as such, you do not carry ANY tools of ANY type with you, correct?

Not even a flashlight, nor a ladder, nor a screw driver, nor ... any other tool.

Originally Posted by David J. Smith

Now we are stretching it in the other direction.

Not stretching it at all - you said it was a "visual inspection", I simply explained why it is not a "visual inspection", thus thinking one can hide behind the "visual inspection" in a contract is erroneous.

Our standards were recently changed to state that if there is a is an indication of a water leak then it must be tested with a moisture meter, which meant all the inspectors who did not already have a meter had to go out and buy one. The test result has to be mentioned in the report.

That is all an infrared camera is in a sense: a moisture meter.

Instead of using electronics to electrically detect *what might be moisture* behind the surface, the infrared camera is using electronics to thermally detect *what might be moisture* behind the surface, and instead of a digital, analog, or lights/buzzer to indicate its results, the infrared camera uses a visual image to display its results. One could use an infrared camera in much the same way they use a moisture meter, and they would not need to use it for any of the other things it can detect.

IR Cameras are way more than just a moisture meter and have many applications beyond moisture detection.
Perhaps if all you use it for is detecting moisture you should just stick with a meter and forego the expense, training and experience that is needed to get the most from a Thermal camera.
The use of a camera can extend the time of a home inspection but not drastically and we do charge extra for a complete IR scan.
We use a scan schedule designed to fit the type of thermal inspection we are contracted to do.
If you would like more information please contact me at
877-370-1144 toll free or email me at gwellborn1@gmail.com.

Originally Posted by Gary wellborn

IR Cameras are way more than just a moisture meter and have many applications beyond moisture detection.

Gary,

The point being discussed is that an infrared camera 'can be used as a moisture meter', and, thus, when the standards of practice specifically "require" a home inspector to have a "moisture meter", the infrared camera could do that - the different is in the method of detection and displaying the results.

Obviously, yes, an infrared camera is (underlining is mine) "way more than just a moisture meter", which is my point in having and using an infrared camera - it has many more uses than many people think of.

OK, I guess I did not read enough of the postings. Thanks for the clarification.

Last week... More than just a moisture meter..

Just curious as to what happens when you say there is a problem based only on the IR scan and when the electrician and plumber comes out to fix the problem they do not find the problem because it is not visible to the naked eye? Most sellers are not going to allow their house to torn up for a fishing expedition.

I imagine an IR camera will soon become just another tool in our bags and it is just a matter of time before all who do not own one will buy one and begin using it during a routine inspection. Just like taking pics during an inspection and including them in reports, or using a pin or surface moisture meter, a CO detector, a gas dectector, ect. Soon, if an inspector does not own an IR camera, our clients will begin asking if you use one and if not, you may not get hired for the job. Technology and competition, one way or the other, will eventually dictate our tool bag contents.

Question though on some of the moisture pics: Based on the size of the some the water leaks and the depth of color (I assume it means level of moisture), how in the world did a visible stain not be apparant? The photos under flooring are really quite compeling though, I must admit. However, IR pics inside panels are interesting but I simply use a laser thermo to tell the temp of wiring and breakers without the use of a $2000.00 piece of equipement..seems just as effective.

An IR camera will be the next big addition to my tool bag...as soon as work picks up and I can justify the costs.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

Just curious as to what happens when you say there is a problem based only on the IR scan and when the electrician and plumber comes out to fix the problem they do not find the problem because it is not visible to the naked eye? Most sellers are not going to allow their house to torn up for a fishing expedition.

Yea James, that is a problem. Most electricians don't have this and will see the pics and dismiss them. Some times the heat wont exceed what they see as typical so again, they will dismiss the issue. In one of those pics of a feeder, it was barely warmer then the opposite, but clearly there is an issue with the connection. Only once has anyone complained about my images, but she was a listing agent "protecting her seller".
With moisture, I will almost 100% of the time confirm moisture with my other meters.

Originally Posted by Marc M

Yea James, that is a problem. Most electricians don't have this and will see the pics and dismiss them. Some times the heat wont exceed what they see as typical so again, they will dismiss the issue. In one of those pics of a feeder, it was barely warmer then the opposite, but clearly there is an issue with the connection. Only once has anyone complained about my images, but she was a listing agent "protecting her seller".
With moisture, I will almost 100% of the time confirm moisture with my other meters.

Do you have any idea (%-wise) how many non-visible problems are investigated and repaired based on your images? There is really no way to track the % accurately but I am just wondering if you have any idea at all. I would guess the percentage would be low.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

Do you have any idea (%-wise) how many non-visible problems are investigated and repaired based on your images? There is really no way to track the % accurately but I am just wondering if you have any idea at all. I would guess the percentage would be low.

On the contrary, I would say the % is quite high. As a matter of fact, on electrical I would say it was around 60% +
With moisture I'd place it at or above 90%

Good info....thanks! Is the i7 good enough for a typical home inspector?

You bet...Matter of fact, Once I got better educated and a thousand or so scans under my belt, I was a little disappointed I spent $9,000 on my mine. Yours will see what mine sees, although the differences are many, the most obvious one being the resolution.
I7 is a great place to start IMO.

Leaking shower pan...Yes, a second story pan.
Hmm, a little out of focus.

Marc,

What areas do you scan? What made you decide to point your IR camera towards the garage ceiling at an exterior wall? I assume you look under and around all bath areas? How about windows? How much time does the IR add to a home inspection?

Wow, thats a lot of questions, how about one more... IR guys seem to be unanamous that if you don't get the 240 X 320 camera you will regret it. I have a hard time justifying the $7,500+ and training just to give the service away for free and open myself up to "well... you had a magic IR camera and you didn't find the hidden leakage"!!

Originally Posted by Rick Strand

Marc,

What areas do you scan? What made you decide to point your IR camera towards the garage ceiling at an exterior wall? I assume you look under and around all bath areas? How about windows? How much time does the IR add to a home inspection?

Wow, thats a lot of questions, how about one more... IR guys seem to be unanamous that if you don't get the 240 X 320 camera you will regret it. I have a hard time justifying the $7,500+ and training just to give the service away for free and open myself up to "well... you had a magic IR camera and you didn't find the hidden leakage"!!

I scan any area that may have moisture in the wall. Concrete / soil over the weep screed thus the inside wall (like today), under all bathrooms, under all laundry rooms and just about anywhere pipes may exist. I will do walls and other stuff after it rains. But mostly for the wow factor, but I do on occasion find leaks doing this. Doing these scans takes only about 10 minutes. I scan multiple times during plumbing tests just in case I'm flooding the ceiling cavity.
I think any IR camera will work fine for this business, really. If I did it over, I'd get the cheaper unit to start with. here's an image of a leak I stumbled across...its from the adjacent unit in a townhouse.

10 minutes to scan everywhere water may be present? That last scan looks like the bottom corner of a closet, I can see myself missing large areas of the home such as this. My concern is that the client will assume I will find all defects, including ones that are not visible. This would be a reasonable expectation if I was getting paid for an IR inspection where everything gets scanned but if just part of a home inspection, and included for free, there must be a lot of surfaces that dont get scanned. Scares the hell out of me and don't see how I can make any more money or even recoupe the cost of the camera.

Just want to clarify the tone of my posts, I am only trying to learn from your experience.

Originally Posted by Rick Strand

10 minutes to scan everywhere water may be present? That last scan looks like the bottom corner of a closet, I can see myself missing large areas of the home such as this. My concern is that the client will assume I will find all defects, including ones that are not visible. This would be a reasonable expectation if I was getting paid for an IR inspection where everything gets scanned but if just part of a home inspection, and included for free, there must be a lot of surfaces that dont get scanned. Scares the hell out of me and don't see how I can make any more money or even recoupe the cost of the camera.

Just want to clarify the tone of my posts, I am only trying to learn from your experience.

LOL, you may not recoup the cost unless you charge for specific services. If you do it, you're doig it for you (CYA) and / or your clients best interests. Just tell them that you're not scanning every wall as this is not an IR scan of the house. My clients are pretty cool, and thus totally understand. Matter of fact...I'm helping an agent help her client with a leak in a wall that her "other" inspector missed. Damned if you do, damned if you don't huh?

Originally Posted by Marc M

LOL, you may not recoup the cost unless you charge for specific services.

I disagree.

I did not charge extra for it, but because I had it I got a lot more referrals ... meaning that I recouped the cost of the camera and training ($14,500) within a very short while and did not have to charge extra to use it.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I disagree.

I did not charge extra for it, but because I had it I got a lot more referrals ... meaning that I recouped the cost of the camera and training ($14,500) within a very short while and did not have to charge extra to use it.

I can see where that can happen. Up here everyone had an IR camera. Where did you go to get the training?

Originally Posted by Marc M

I can see where that can happen. Up here everyone had an IR camera. Where did you go to get the training?

More people have them now than back when I had mine, I bought mine in 2004 as I recall, not many home inspectors had one back then.

I lived in South Florida at the time and FLIR was frozen in Up North, so they came down to Ft. Lauderdale in January for their training week, and being as I lived 'around the corner', so to speak, I jumped at the chance for them to come to me instead of me having to go to them.

Although, when you go to them you get to see their setup up there and that can lead to learning more simply because there are some many things around to play with and use, unlike when they can only bring limited equipment with them when traveling to other locations.

Nonetheless, though, they were basking in 85-90 degree weather with us while the weather Up There was in the 20s and below, as I recall.

Went 3 for 4 today in shower pans.

Are you flooding the pans with a dam?

Originally Posted by Rick Strand

Are you flooding the pans with a dam?

No not a dam, but it is an ancient Chinese secret.

Technically, I did kinda go 4 for 5 yesterday if you include the bathtub leak.

Originally Posted by Rick Strand

Are you flooding the pans with a dam?

That's the best way to check them. Flood them almost to the top of the threshold, about 1/2" to 3/4" down depending on the tile/marble/stone thickness.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That's the best way to check them. Flood them almost to the top of the threshold, about 1/2" to 3/4" down depending on the tile/marble/stone thickness.

Oh man, you're giving away my secrets...
Yea, I actually use a tub stopper, or four (in this case). Obviously working like gangbusters. (although I have no idea what that means)

Originally Posted by Marc M

Oh man, you're giving away my secrets...
Yea, I actually use a tub stopper,

"tub stopper"

Huh?

That is quite risky.

You need to get some of the ones made for testing shower pans, like this one: Bathtub and Shower Drain Stopper - Mfg# #144

I used to carry four of them, one for normal shower, two for deeper showers (one on top of the first one) and up to four for those old tiled bathtubs.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"tub stopper"

Huh?

That is quite risky.

You need to get some of the ones made for testing shower pans, like this one: Bathtub and Shower Drain Stopper - Mfg# #144

I used to carry four of them, one for normal shower, two for deeper showers (one on top of the first one) and up to four for those old tiled bathtubs.

Yea, Tub stopper, "tomato..tomahto..
Jerry, get a short piece of PVC for your stoppers, that way you can cut one of the stoppers low for those short pans and use the PVC to extend the top of the stopper for the taller pans that are a little too short for "doubled up" tub stoppers..
P.s., you're welcome for such a brilliant idea.

Originally Posted by Marc M

Yea, Tub stopper, "tomato..tomahto..
Jerry, get a short piece of PVC for your stoppers, that way you can cut one of the stoppers low for those short pans and use the PVC to extend the top of the stopper for the taller pans that are a little too short for "doubled up" tub stoppers..
P.s., you're welcome for such a brilliant idea.

Had not thunk of dat!

By the way, are those 'kill' marks on that stopper?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Had not thunk of dat!

By the way, are those 'kill' marks on that stopper?

Yea, the plastic pipe is nice because you can adjust it up and down to the perfect height. And yes, those are my kill marks. I figure its a good way to see how much money I'm saving my clients..got 3 more just like it..

Another kill...

Marc,
Do you scan the area before you fill the pan, before and after shots?

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Marc,
Do you scan the area before you fill the pan, before and after shots?

Yes. I want to eliminate the potential for unnecessary damage as a result of my test. Most people, however, don't take an hour long shower with 3" of water in their pan.

Originally Posted by Marc M

Most people, however, don't take an hour long shower with 3" of water in their pan.

That's why it's called a 'test' and a shower is not testing the pan.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That's why it's called a 'test' and a shower is not testing the pan.

I actually just had this exact conversation with an agent the other day. He wouldn't allow the test because they (sellers) use the shower every day...

Originally Posted by Marc M

He wouldn't allow the test because they (sellers) use the shower every day...

I always loved those responses as that opened the door for my responses, such as: Let's see, the house is $2.3 mil, your commission is, what, 3%, that means you will be making about $69 k, which is good because that full custom granite shower stall is worth about $50 k, and you KNOW the buyers will not just want the bottom and the pan re-done, they will demand the ENTIRE shower be re-done so it all matches like it does now ... all of your work and you only make about $17 k, which is still actually pretty good ... (and then I would smile) ... it's a lot more than I am charging, so I will need you to sign a notarized affidavit that you would not allow me to test the shower and that you are guaranteeing that the shower does not leak.

There usual response was something to the effect of they were not about to do either, no letter stating they would not allow me to test the shower and that they certainly were not guaranteeing the shower pan ... it was about that time they noticed that I was documenting what was being said during the conversation and they really started freaking out ... and allowed me to test the shower pan.

I can explain to a client or used house sales person that a component failed during 'normal operation', I can not justify water running out of a first floor ceiling after 'testing'.

I would not allow an inspector into my home carrying a device with kill marks on it.

Originally Posted by Rick Strand

I can explain to a client or used house sales person that a component failed during 'normal operation', I can not justify water running out of a first floor ceiling after 'testing'.

With some further training and knowledge of how shower pans are 'supposed to be' constructed and installed, and the materials used for shower pans, and you would understand that the shower pan 'should' hold water to the top of the threshold where the shower pan is (i.e., just below the tile on the threshold) and the shower pan should hold that water until the water evaporates into the air ... yes, the shower pan should not leak ... not just for 5 minutes, not just for 10 minutes, not just for 1 hour even - if the shower pan is properly constructed of the proper materials the should pan should not leak ... period.

I would not allow an inspector into my home carrying a device with kill marks on it.

That inspector would have a real easy time explaining to the buyer *WHY* the shower pan *NEEDS* to be tested, and that the marks indicate the unfortunate fact that the shower pan *NEEDS* to be tested because *SO MANY* are installed incorrectly.

At that point, if you were the seller and I were the buyer, *YOU* would personally guarantee, with a cash bond payable to me, that the shower pan will not leak ... or ... you could elect to cancel the contract - your choice, sir.

Any smart buyer would be willing to walk away and leave you sputtering something about why ... why ... why ... and all you would hear next is the closing of the front door as you lost *ANOTHER* sale because of your stance.

Again - your choice.