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  1. #1
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
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    Default Basic moisture meter question

    I am now realizing a need for a moisture meter, but I am a cheapskate. So I need to know more to make the correct purchase.

    I am seeing two different types of instruments called moisture meters. One of the instrument types indicates moisture content of the material and is usually the more expensive of the two types. The other type indicates relative moisture and is usually under $50. In addition to wood and drywall, I will have frequent need to examine old stucco.

    Obviously, I am a layman about this instrument, so please dumb it down so I can understand and make the right purchase. Thanks in advance.

    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    I am now realizing a need for a moisture meter, but I am a cheapskate. So I need to know more to make the correct purchase.

    I am seeing two different types of instruments called moisture meters. One of the instrument types indicates moisture content of the material and is usually the more expensive of the two types. The other type indicates relative moisture and is usually under $50. In addition to wood and drywall, I will have frequent need to examine old stucco.

    Obviously, I am a layman about this instrument, so please dumb it down so I can understand and make the right purchase. Thanks in advance.

    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES
    Don't go cheap on a moisture meter. You will regret it.

    As for real stucco, a moisture meter will not work on the exterior. The metal lath will give you false readings. If you drill holes in the stucco, you can screw-up the underlayment. I inspect stucco visually from the outside and then I use a Tramex Moisture Encounter on the interior drywall. Leaks will occur around penetrations (Doors, windows, flashing problems, etc.)

    A good all around moisture meter is a Protimeter SM.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  3. #3
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Although I still am going to purchase a moisture meter, my current situation involves a discolored patch on exterior stucco. Now I am told that a moisture meter will not help determine if the discoloration is moisture or an old repair. Do you have suggestions for answering this question?

    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES


  4. #4
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    You can't just buy one moister meter. you need 2 with you at all times.

    you will be hanging your but on them at times. its good to check one with the other on the job. one can go bad at times without a back up.

    Only look at a new unit. you should be spending around $ 350 to $ 500 for a good unit.

    you get what you pay for.

    Best

    Ron


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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    Although I still am going to purchase a moisture meter, my current situation involves a discolored patch on exterior stucco. Now I am told that a moisture meter will not help determine if the discoloration is moisture or an old repair.
    A moisture meter on stucco will tell you relatively 'how wet' one area is to another area, however, keep in mind that stucco gets wet, that water goes through stucco, that water goes through the paper of the paper back metal lath, that you cannot determine leaks without knowing if the drainage plane behind the stucco-and-paper-backed-metal-lath is installed and intact. Which no moisture meter is going to tell you.

    Now I am told that a moisture meter will not help determine if the discoloration is moisture or an old repair. Do you have suggestions for answering this question?
    First, why do you care if it is moisture or an old repair? *Neither* has any determination on whether or not the stucco wall leaks. That is based on the drainage plane behind it all (should be behind it all).

    "Moisture or old repair"? You are talking about stucco, which gets wet, and which allows water to go through it.

    What is inside that you noticed? What brought your attention to that area on the outside?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    May sound like a dumb question but are you sure it is old stucco or another type of system. They have been using foam and fiberglass mesh for decades. It makes a difference. If it is a foam job then you can probe it with extremely little invasive mess. A little squirt of caulking and you will never know.


  7. #7
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    My issue for this specific purpose is not the interior. I care about the moisture versus old repair question because that is the question the client asked me to try to answer.

    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES


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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Darrell,

    I've had the expensive moisture meters and the cheap ones.

    The expensive ones are nice and attractive, but if you don't pull it out from behind the seat of the truck, its about as useful as tits on a bulldog.

    I've got a very inexpensive one that I picked up at Graingers and it has never proved me wrong. Paid about 150. for it.

    My point is buy one and use it.

    rick


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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    I care about the moisture versus old repair question because that is the question the client asked me to try to answer.

    Sometimes, the best answer is to explain 'why the answer to the question is meaningless', and 'why another question is of more importance'.

    It does not matter that there is moisture *IN* the stucco. It is designed to get that way.

    Thus, the question should not be can I "determine if the discoloration is moisture or an old repair", the question should be ... '*IF* that is an old repair, *WHY* was it made?' Followed by 'and *HOW* was it made?'

    That is the real question ... "How was it made?" It is real easy to screw up a stucco on frame system by drilling, cutting, etc., into it. It is real hard to properly patch it once that has been done.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrel Hood View Post
    My issue for this specific purpose is not the interior. I care about the moisture versus old repair question because that is the question the client asked me to try to answer.

    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES
    Darrel,

    I'm good at raising questions that I can't answer. For a previous repair I suggest to the client to go back to the seller and ask for documentation regarding the repair - what was the problem, who made the repair, any warranty info etc. This puts responsibility on the client's shoulders.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  11. #11
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    As usual, I obviously did not anticipate the upcoming questions completely. This is not the usual home inspection scenario. I am doing some non traditional inspection work for a property management company on a town home community. They are asking why this one patch of stucco looks different than all the other stucco on a ten year old building. They raised the possibility of moisture absorption, substandard repair material, different brand paint for the repair, etc yada. . .yada . . . yada. At this point, they are not anticipating action; they just want information obtained in a nondestructive manner. They know the answer may not be available, but they want me to try. They are good long term clients, so I will give it my best shot.

    By the way, thanks for all the help about moisture meters.


    "The Cheapskate"
    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES


  12. #12
    Herb Scott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Depends on the house age, the overall condition of the stucco, what flashings are visible / not visible, are penetrations sealed, is kick out flashing installed above the area, etc.
    If you canít determine if its moisture or a patch , and a surface moisture meter will not do it, I suggest you request additional information and / or you recommend further evaluation so that you and your client are protected.
    I do specific stucco / eifs inspections but they are way beyond the general home inspection. A warranty is available if the house meets the requirements but the inspection is invasive, requiring a number of small drill holes to access the wall sheathing with a probe type moisture meter at critical locations. The only non-invasive way is with an IR camera however any findings with that also need to be confirmed with a probe type meter.
    You can only report on what you see so be sure your findings, including photos, and recommendations are in your report. The vast majority of stucco on frame has problems. And a high percentage has serious damage. If this is a town house community as you mentioned I would be highly suspect.
    Getting back to cost, donít go cheap if you are going beyond the visual only inspection.
    Herb Scott


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Scott,
    Correct me if I'm wrong but my $1000 Tramex wet wall detector will only read 2-4 inchs below the surface. I've used it on interior walls but there could be seriously deterioration to wall sheathing and framing and it would not pick it up from the inside. By the time it becomes visible or detectable from the interior there is likely some serious deterioration. Is there something I'm missing?
    Thanks,
    Herb Scott


  14. #14
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    All of the suggestions are valid from my point of view. One said Moisture Encounter and that is the meter for your job. If they want an answer ask them to pay for one for you. It reads on the dry wall as stated earlier. You can drill and insert some kind of insulator into the holes and put in your probes from the outside. Take the reading on the sunstrate less than 19 % usually means it is OK. The closer to the 19% you are the more you need to be concerned. As for the repairs ask them why it was done as stated earlier. You know that color difference is because of the time difference. I for one have never had any problem with drilling for a reading. You don't want to drill all over the place just in the areas noted earlier by someone, windows, decks end dams under kickouts etc. Sorry I know most has been said I just had to put in my two cents.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by William Brady View Post
    You can drill and insert some kind of insulator into the holes and put in your probes from the outside.

    Not with stucco on frame.

    If you did that, you would violate the drainage plane, and, if there were no problem previously, you just created a big one.

    That's just a real bad idea.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Sorry I just read your post Jerry. What is your advice on doing moisture testing then??? How would you find the condition of the substrate and if it's wet or not??


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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by William Brady View Post
    What is your advice on doing moisture testing then???
    With stucco on frame, your readings from outside are going to be meaningless. Not much you can do unless one is willing to do destructive testing and have the ability to properly repair the area destroyed. Of course, destructive testing means removing an area of stucco, metal lath, exposing the substrate for viewing and testing - the problem becomes putting it back where you have done "no harm".

    How would you find the condition of the substrate and if it's wet or not??
    If you find loose stucco, you may, or may not, have found damaged substrate.

    Other than the above, I don't know an easy answer to your question.

    The first thing home inspectors must remember is the same as doctors:

    First and foremost: Do No Harm.

    Drilling holes in stucco is like drilling weep holes in brick veneer after the wall has been built: Not only have you done *the wall no good*, you have *done the wall harm*.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    When I have a suspicion or see something, I try to use my meters from the interior on homes with Stucco, some EIFS, DEFS, Brick, stone and lick-n-stick cladding's.

    It's not always possible but I have found many problems by using my meters on the interior walls over the years. If you have an IR camera and you know how to really use it well, then this would be another tool to use.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  19. #19
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Thanks for the feedback. So you are saying that the experts that say scan first then take reading on the substrate are not correct. For example MWC trains it's inspectors to scan then punch the EIFS and then take reading on the substrate for moisture. Is that not right??? EDI for example trains the same way. MWC did the work on the class action case and thats how they arrived at the findings. I am confused because I read this posting all the time and have faith in the inspectors who post here including both of you above. I do lots of this work and do so by the standards they teach. I have real concerns about what has been said here and need to know if there standards are incorrect then who's standards do we go by when doing this work. I do not for example cut circles out of a home and submit the OBS for testing like some I have heard about do. I do 1/4 inch drill holes in the conventional stucco and use the punch provided by Tramix in the EFIS kit to do that work. If we are not going to punch EIFS for example why are companies like Tramix providing a punch to do just that?? I am not looking for a big fight here or any disagreement with anyone I just need to hear your thoughts on my points. I say that because I have seen many of our post go straight down hill on stuff just like this. Thanks.


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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by William Brady View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. So you are saying that the experts that say scan first then take reading on the substrate are not correct. For example MWC trains it's inspectors to scan then punch the EIFS

    William,

    I made sure I was stressing and stating "stucco" each time. Which is what Darrel stated.

    You just said "EIFS" ... entirely different animal. One is kept in the front fields where it can be seen and admired, the other is kept in the back 40 where no one can see it.

    We are, and have been, talking about "stucco" ... unless everyone who has said "stucco" meant "EIFS".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  21. #21
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Hi Jerry I was actually talking about both in my question. Perhaps I was not that clear. I scan with a moisture Encounter inside on conventional then drill my 1/4 holes and take a reading. For EIFS I use the Tramix Wet Wall meter outside then punch to take the reading. I somtimes think people can read minds. All am asking from you and other here that have been around a lot longer then I is if not this way then how?? I do not want to damage the drainage on a stucco wall that would never be my preference. Two 1/4" holes under a window which is where most leaking takes place can damage the drainage. Help me to understand how that happens.


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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by William Brady View Post
    Hi Jerry I was actually talking about both in my question. Perhaps I was not that clear. I scan with a moisture Encounter inside on conventional then drill my 1/4 holes and take a reading. For EIFS I use the Tramix Wet Wall meter outside then punch to take the reading. I somtimes think people can read minds. All am asking from you and other here that have been around a lot longer then I is if not this way then how?? I do not want to damage the drainage on a stucco wall that would never be my preference. Two 1/4" holes under a window which is where most leaking takes place can damage the drainage. Help me to understand how that happens.
    I guess you need ask yourself if what you are doing is working? Do you feel like your protocol is proper and providing you the information that you need to assess the system you are inspecting?

    About the only cladding that you can scan with a Wet Wall Detector (WWD) is EIFS. The WWD is not designed for anything else, although with practice you can use it at times. The WWD will not work properly on real stucco.

    By punching holes in a EIFS drainage system or a Stucco clad home you have compromised the moisture barrier between the system and the substrate of the home. Those little holes over a period of time could allow water to enter and rot the substrate. Even when you seal the holes back up, it is very unlikely that you will get enough sealant in that hole to seal the moisture barrier.

    I have changed and adapted my own protocols over the years. Before I even pull out a moisture meter on an EIFS home I visually inspect the exterior and then I use a Moisture Encounter to check suspect areas on the interior of the home. This helps to cut the time and zero me in on problem areas. Most of my EIFS inspections are now for buyers, so the inspection is a little different than for a homeowner who is suing a builder, manufacturer, etc. Back in the late 1990's up to around 2003, I would say that 90% of my EIFS inspections were for owners. Once the class action lawsuits were over the pendulum moved toward the buyers.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 11-05-2008 at 08:05 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by William Brady View Post
    Hi Jerry I was actually talking about both in my question. Perhaps I was not that clear.
    Okay, understood now, I thought you were talking only about EIFS.

    I scan with a moisture Encounter inside on conventional then drill my 1/4 holes and take a reading.
    "drill my 1/4 holes" where? Through the stucco on the outside?

    All am asking from you and other here that have been around a lot longer then I is if not this way then how?? I do not want to damage the drainage on a stucco wall that would never be my preference. Two 1/4" holes under a window which is where most leaking takes place can damage the drainage.
    See attached drawings for what happens when you drill a hole through stucco.

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    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  24. #24
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    OK Scott as I said in my first post on this subject I am not trying to create a big deal here with all kinds of insults back and forward. Having said that I recall some time ago we talk about this subject but it was not about drilled holes and moisture reading. If my memory serves me correctly you are not for the lack of a better term a big EDI guy. I am be wrong about that and if I am sorry. OH and buy the way I know that a WWD is for EIFS and not conventional. The protocal for both EIFS and conventional is the same in most respect eccept for the scanning meter which has already been talked about. Moisture Encounter and WWD. Buyers want to know the condition of the substrate. Lets do this.
    A buyer or someone else wants to buy a home and they have it inspected. The Home Inspector says in the report that the home should be inspected buy a qualified stucco inspector or EIFS inspector whatever the case. I know you have seen that situation in our long career I know I have on numerous times. So someone looks on the EDI site and you get a call. Are you going to do only a visual on the home the HI did that already. They want to know if the substrate is wet, soft or maybe missing altogether. Not everyone has the tools to do this job as you know they are expesive and the training is big bucks too. My protocol for something like this and I am holding my breath saying this is as follows. I have them sign my stucco pre inspection agreement. I get paid and go to the home. I start around the home clockwise starting from the front left side and take elevation photo's and scaning as I go. If its conventional I am inside and if it's EIFS I am outside scanning. I probe if my scanning tell me there might be some moisture present. 19 % is my line as you know. I probe under windows, under kickouts and end dams of decks etc. I reomove lights to see what I have under the stucco or Eifs. I try to indetify the system present. I check the drainage and for grading . You know there is lots to do if you are going to do the job right. Here we have flat roofs and the parapit is somethings the problem. After that I report with lots of photo's and readings as necessary. I try to give them a good picture of what they are buying just like a HI. Now please remember I respect you guys and I know there are thing I have not said about the entire procedure so nit picking is not necessary. You may have your opinions in how this works and so I stay with what I have been taught. Part of the big problems is that everyone is going work differenty and saying I have been doing it for years and it's OK. You have heard that to from contractors right. Remember the class action was partly due to the manufactuer not publishing the details for installation and the applicators doing it there way. Who looses, the home owner.

    I can't wait to see what comes back please be kind.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Bill,

    If you are doing it for the owner, you can use your long EIFS insulated probes (I have them for my Delmhorst meter), poke two holes through the gypsum board inside (with their permission, of course), then insert the probes into the holes and read the backside of the sheathing.

    You would not, of course, want to do this 'all over just to check' as you will leave dual holes behind which will need to be filled (easy enough to do) and painted to match the surrounding wall area (not so easy to do).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Quote Originally Posted by William Brady View Post
    OK Scott as I said in my first post on this subject I am not trying to create a big deal here with all kinds of insults back and forward.
    I don't think I tossed any insults your way? If you think my post is insulting you might need to chill out a little.... Life is too short!

    Having said that I recall some time ago we talk about this subject but it was not about drilled holes and moisture reading. If my memory serves me correctly you are not for the lack of a better term a big EDI guy. I am be wrong about that and if I am sorry.
    No, I attended EDI training and have even helped in a couple of the classes back in 2002. AWCI is the one that I was not a fan of. Why? AWCI was formed by and for the manufacturers and their training and protocols were slanted toward the manufacturers. I attended AWCI and NWCI as well. I found EDI to be the best.

    OH and buy the way I know that a WWD is for EIFS and not conventional. The protocol for both EIFS and conventional is the same in most respect eccept for the scanning meter which has already been talked about. Moisture Encounter and WWD. Buyers want to know the condition of the substrate.
    Really... After performing over 1000 EIFS and related system inspections I can't really say I have had a buyer that was really concerned with the condition of the substrate. All they want is for it to be repaired and a guarantee that it won't leak any more.

    I have found that the buyer is served best when I report that I found moisture in the wall with possible damage. Then I tell them that the owner needs to have a full EIFS inspection that might uncover additional damage in the walls. This type of inspection is what I do for a buyer if I also do the home inspection. I have found very few homeowners that will allow for their home to be probed when they don't know of or don't think they have a problem.

    If I'm called in to do it after a home inspection or they think they have a problem I do it pretty much like you do.

    Now the owners are the ones that are really concerned with the condition of the substrate and they should be. And even if you probe you really do not have a good picture of the damage in the wall. Sure you know that where you placed the probe that it was soft, etc. The only true way to know the severity of the damage is to remove sections of the wall to view the substrate and framing members. This might sound extreme but is a fact.

    When I do a full blown EIFS/Stucco inspection it is expensive. Most of my EIFS or stucco inspections on residential homes run between $700 to $1500+ depending on the size and amount of material on the home. Most buyers are not going to pay this fee. In my report I provide details of the problems and what needs to be done to correct the problem. This benefits the homeowner more than the buyer as they know exactly what needs to be done to repair the home.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 11-05-2008 at 04:10 PM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  27. #27
    don sgroi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Attually I am a floorng inspector who uses moisurture meters on a regular basis. There are actually two types of meters a non invasive meter that reads moisture content but is only a qualitive reading not very accurate, these will work on cement as well as wood. The more accurate meter is a Pin meter which is a quantitive reading and quite accurate reading exact precentages of moisture content of wood or sheet rock. An average price meter is going to be in the $200.00 + range. I just purchased a new meter that reads all types of products, cost was a little over $1000.00. Check out Delmhorst or Tramex if you want a decent meter.

    Don Sgroi


  28. #28
    Wesley Holley's Avatar
    Wesley Holley Guest

    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Hey Don, What new meter did you buy for $1000. ?
    Can I have your old Delmhorst?
    I had to replace my Tramex pin meter with an old analog readout delmhorst.
    Don't get me wrong it's a usable meter but I have to strain to see the measurements on the dial. That and it has no "hold" feature which is usefull in crawlspace testing.


  29. #29
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Basic moisture meter question

    Hey Scott,

    Sorry I did not get back sooner busy very busy. After reading post I realized that you are correct about who wants the testing. I do this same thing during a regular HI. Rarely, do I do a actual stucco or EIFS inspection as a followup. I do however get calls from time to time about question people have concerning the EIFS and sometimes stucco. I will give them the details about what I do and sometimes they pay for it just like you it's not cheep. I remembered that you had some feeling about one of the school and I thought it was EDI. My take on there certification is wonderful I have gotten back my investment and then some.


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