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Thread: Ladder choice

  1. #1
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    Default Ladder choice

    I'm thinking about ditching my 28' extension ladder for a Werner MT 26.

    What coukd I do with a 28' extension ladder that I could not do with the MT 26?

    MT-26 26' Type IA Telescoping MultiLadder

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    I'm thinking about ditching my 28' extension ladder for a Werner MT 26.

    What coukd I do with a 28' extension ladder that I could not do with the MT 26?

    MT-26 26' Type IA Telescoping MultiLadder
    In my area there are tons of row homes that my 28' just barely get me onto.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    In my area there are tons of row homes that my 28' just barely get me onto.
    Same thing here. But, the 28' ext only opens to an actual 25' in length. So, the MT 26 has got that beat by 1'.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Same thing here. But, the 28' ext only opens to an actual 25' in length. So, the MT 26 has got that beat by 1'.
    Got it. I didn't realize what kind of ladder the MT is. I'm interested.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    The only reason I use a truck to do inspections is to carry my ladder(s).

    I normally carry a few sizes, but the 28' extension ladder is my workhorse. A year ago I bought an MT 26 so I could use a car (hatchback) to get me through a period when I had to send my truck elsewhere.

    I hated the ladder. It is very awkward to move around when extended; especially around obstacles. I also found it very difficult (if not impossible) to adjust the height of the ladder when in an upright position. This is something that is easy with an extension ladder. With the MT I found myself laying the ladder down every time... not an easy task when fully extended.

    Most of my inspections include alot of ladder use and this is all a concern.

    So my bottom line is that I have both ladders and choose to use the traditional extension. The other has not been opened in a year and I only keep it for emergencies

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    I could get rid of carrying 28' and 16' on roof of Ford Transit. I could also remove the roof rack since the MT 26 would fit in the van folded up.

    I would be loosing about 50lbs and loosing a significant amount of wind drag.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Steven,

    What it the overall length of the MT 26 when its completely folded up?


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Back to row houses - I often take my 28' through the house so I can set it up in the rear. It can be a cramped space back there - can you set it upright as a 13' and then extend it straight up all the way?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Back to row houses - I often take my 28' through the house so I can set it up in the rear. It can be a cramped space back there - can you set it upright as a 13' and then extend it straight up all the way?
    Heres a demo. This one is Little Giant but the process would be basically the same I suppose.

    Little Giant Model 26 Extension Position - YouTube


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Heres a demo. This one is Little Giant but the process would be basically the same I suppose.

    Little Giant Model 26 Extension Position - YouTube
    Thanks. That process looks like it requires too much room for a lot of those row house back patios.
    Plus, rolling it up the wall is ok if all you have is a smooth wall up there, but often there are windows in the way, or the roof eave and fascia itself to get around. With a conventional extension you can pull the top of the ladder back a bit from the wall and pop the fly portion around the obstruction, but that looks it could be pretty awkward with the MT 26.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    My Werner is 79" folded.

    The guy in the movie makes it look easy... actually he does not make it look that easy.

    Now add bushes, overhead wires, and any other obstacle.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Back to row houses - I often take my 28' through the house so I can set it up in the rear. It can be a cramped space back there - can you set it upright as a 13' and then extend it straight up all the way?
    John,
    Having done hundreds of inspections in Philadelphia, I find it interesting that you take the ladder through the house. I only recall doing that about one time. Many have wires in the back and garages. I usually go up from the front (sometimes climbing above the 28-foot ladder and boosting myself over the Mansard roof, or when there are multiply roof levels I use the Little Giant and go up that way from the rear.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Yes, I can see how the extension ladder would be easier in some situations.

    Me being a part time inspector who averages 2-3 inspections per week, it's not all that often I even need the 28 footer. When I do, it's even less often I have obstructions that would cause excessive difficulty in use.

    I think I might try the MT 26. I bet there is a satisfaction or return it policy at the big box stores anyway. I wonder what the time limit on return would be.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Heres a demo. This one is Little Giant but the process would be basically the same I suppose.

    Little Giant Model 26 Extension Position - YouTube
    I have not used one, but I suspect that the MT26 would be very awkward to use. Why do you also carry a 16' ladder. I carry a 28 and a 17' Little Giant. I use the Little Giant way more than the 28 and get on almost every roof. Was it you or someone else who was looking into the Warner 3 section extension ladders awhile ago? I don't know if that would help at all.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    John,
    Having done hundreds of inspections in Philadelphia, I find it interesting that you take the ladder through the house. I only recall doing that about one time. Many have wires in the back and garages. I usually go up from the front (sometimes climbing above the 28-foot ladder and boosting myself over the Mansard roof, or when there are multiply roof levels I use the Little Giant and go up that way from the rear.
    I feel much more secure in the back. And, I'm not crazy about having my ladder on the public sidewalk or even in the street. As for "boosting myself over the Mansard roof", that's SpiderMan stuff in my book. If my ladder doesn't get to the top of the mansard, I just get my eyes over the edge and look from there.
    It's lower in the back, too! I've even taken my ladder into the house and shoved it through a rear window into one of those slots between the houses.
    Ok, I'll say it, you're braver than I am.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I have not used one, but I suspect that the MT26 would be very awkward to use. Why do you also carry a 16' ladder. I carry a 28 and a 17' Little Giant. I use the Little Giant way more than the 28 and get on almost every roof. Was it you or someone else who was looking into the Warner 3 section extension ladders awhile ago? I don't know if that would help at all.

    I use the 16' extension most of the time on the exterior - more than any other ladder. It's so light and easy to pull up from a porch roof. Or, like John said, I've carried it up to a second floor bedroom and out the window onto a porch roof to get on the roof of row homes.

    I had considered the 3 section Werner but it is too long to fit into the Ford Transit. That is my main goal. To get the best performing (height wise) ladder into the Transit cabin and close the door. That way I can ditch carrying extension ladders on the roof rack, and ditch the roof rack too. Too much wind drag for the wimpy little 4 banger.

    The transit head room is so good, I can build hanger channel or brackets and hang them from the ceiling. The MT-26 would slide in up near the headliner along the passenger side. I'd hardly even know it was there. The 3 section 28' Werner ext was too long for that.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Just found a Little Giant Revolution XE 26' on Craigslist. It's 15lbs lighter than the Werner MT 26. It also has newer style locking mechanisms that make use easier.

    I'm getting this lightly used specimen for $200. That's less than 1/2 the cost of new.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Looked at video. He is having a problem to get to full extension and he is doing it in a warehouse on a flat smooth wall. What happens when the dog comes around the corner and startles him and he is distracted. The ladder comes down and breaks his arm.

    It is odd that the weight is not noted in specifications/description.

    Have them use them but like my old extension ladders, maybe just an old dog thing.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    In many cases, the little giant could be extended while laying flat on the ground. Then, using the trunk of a tree, vehicle bumper or other stable object, the ladder can be walked to the upright position and carried to the location for use.

    If one man can carry a 40' ext ladder in the upright position, he can certainly do it with a little giant.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    I use the LG version and it's super awkward to move safely when extended, and I hate the "bounce" or twist the thing has when fully extended. Feels like 2 sections of bamboo lashed together with a shoelace.

    If I had to choose, I'd stick with a extension ladder for tall roofs.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    I weigh in at 177lbs. The LG Is rated for 300lb. I should be ok.

    I'm gonna carry both the LG 26 and the 28' ext for a while. I'll try and omit use of the 28' to see how life would be without it. But I'm not getting rid of it just yet.

    As far as LG users are concerned, there's got to be some people out there who like it. Where are you guys? Anyone willing to put in good words for it? I'm getting the newer model with improved hinges and locks.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    I will put in a good word.

    If it suits your use it is great!

    I believe you drive a Transit. I agree with wanting a ladder that can fit inside. Since you are doing Standard Home Inspections, you will probably have limited usage on the jobsite. I probably use a ladder 20-50+ times at various heights on jobs. If I was doing what I believe you are doing I would elect to use the folding ladder too. I would also carry a small extension ladder that I could pull out quickly for areas that don't need the full extension, and I didn't want to go through the unfolding/folding process.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    I use the LG version and it's super awkward to move safely when extended, and I hate the "bounce" or twist the thing has when fully extended. Feels like 2 sections of bamboo lashed together with a shoelace.

    If I had to choose, I'd stick with a extension ladder for tall roofs.

    Dom.
    One word - Jaws.
    My old Jaws has never flopped around and never will. Very strong, very light.

    I picked up a LG knockoff in the store the other day and almost busted a gut, too heavy.

    Even so, the Jaws is for short, extension ladder is for tall. It is simply faster to go from front yard to the top level, skip the slippery deck, etc.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    I will put in a good word.

    If it suits your use it is great!

    I believe you drive a Transit. I agree with wanting a ladder that can fit inside. Since you are doing Standard Home Inspections, you will probably have limited usage on the jobsite. I probably use a ladder 20-50+ times at various heights on jobs. If I was doing what I believe you are doing I would elect to use the folding ladder too. I would also carry a small extension ladder that I could pull out quickly for areas that don't need the full extension, and I didn't want to go through the unfolding/folding process.

    Thanks. And you're right, I won't need full extension that often. When I do, I'm strong and coordinated. I think it will work.

    I'll also be carrying a 6' step ladder for light exterior work and for carrying around the inside for getting at sill plates, ceiling registers, attic hatches, etc.....


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    My problem is the weight of the ladder. I have the standard LG, which I like, but at 30-something lbs, it's not easy to lug around. This MT-26 looks to be in the 60 lb range. That's pretty heavy. A standard extension is somewhat less and still difficult to use.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    My problem is the weight of the ladder. I have the standard LG, which I like, but at 30-something lbs, it's not easy to lug around. This MT-26 looks to be in the 60 lb range. That's pretty heavy. A standard extension is somewhat less and still difficult to use.
    The LG Revolution XE 26 is what I'm getting. It's 47lbs.

    Here are the specs.

    Little Giant Ladder, Revolution 26 ft. Aluminum Multi-Position Ladder with 300 lb. Load Capacity Type IA Duty Rating, 12026 at The Home Depot - Mobile


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Same thing here. But, the 28' ext only opens to an actual 25' in length. So, the MT 26 has got that beat by 1'.
    John, I use the LG 26 ;and the actual length is only 23' fully extended.
    Don't use the "reach" specifications from the chart. The ladder is 6.5' folded, 13' straight, then when you extend it you loose a foot on each end due to overlap of the 2 extension sections.

    I love how stable the ladder is although it does bounce a bit when in full extension, but no more so than most regular extension ladders I have used.
    But it is a bear to handle. I'm 5'10" and 240lb. You MUST have a wall to but the ladder base against to walk it to vertical then carry to position, not something you want to do in a wind or if you did not eat your Wheaties!
    I carry the shorter version of a Werner for everyday use which is light, quick and easy to use. I only load the big brother when my internet recon tells me I have to have my biggest ladder. I always dread having to even load it. The 47 lb version may make it tolerable, good luck. I still would rather do this than drag around a ladder rack and full blown extension ladder. In my market there are few row houses and few two stories than I can't get with my normal ladder. I think I have used the M-26 three or four times this year.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Thanks everyone for posting in this thread.

    I picked up the LG Revolution XE 26 last night from the Craigslist deal. It's as good as new. I paid $200 and I'm happy. Cheapest I've seen it otherwise would be ordering it from Amazon including free shipping for $442. I'll report back after I've used it for a while and also let you know how I worked out the storage of it within my Ford Transit. I know that it will be more difficult in some situations and that I'll be sacrificing 2' of reach compared to my 28' extension ladder. Maybe I can live with these things, maybe not - we'll see.


    While we're on the subject of ladders, I do my best to walk on every roof I can while being safe and not causing damage. I'm sure many of you do the same. For those few occasions that you cannot get on the roof, aside from the reason why, how do you word your recommendations to your client?


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    For those few occasions that you cannot get on the roof, aside from the reason why, how do you word your recommendations to your client?
    Due too ----- rain, leaves, steep roof, ?????, I felt it was unsafe to get on the roof and provide a closer inspection. The roof was inspected from the , ground and or eves.
    Sometimes I will offer to return to inspect the roof later, if it was because of the roof being wet .

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    I worked with it a bit. Getting it into the extension position and getting the top section fully extended is easy. In this position it's 17' long. At that length, even if there's obstacles, it's easy to carry in the upright position to the place where it would be used.

    The more tricky and cumbersome part is getting the bottom section extended once in the upright 17' length. I can do it but it's a pita.

    I'm thinking I can install a rope and pulley for the final extension task.

    What do you think?


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    2 story slab on grade, no sweat. It had plenty to spare.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Extended the upper in the yard as shown in the video. Then, walked it in the upright position up the steps and onto the deck. At 17' it will just reach the gutter and you can lean it. Then, extend one more rung from the bottom section to get the proper over hang at the top. Jam screwdrivers in deck slots to prevent kickout at bottom. Done.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Vehicle storage. I may not bother trying to devise anything more than this. Easy to load and unload. Cinch to the cargo hold down and its secure and quiet. Minor drawback of limiting my over the shoulder visibility to the right blind spot. No biggy since the side view mirrors are pretty decent and have built in wide angles.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    I'm thinking about ditching my 28' extension ladder for a Werner MT 26.

    What coukd I do with a 28' extension ladder that I could not do with the MT 26?

    MT-26 26' Type IA Telescoping MultiLadder
    My 2...
    I've got the HD version of the "Little Giant" years ago, it does work as advertised, is very stable and I've used it a lot. As others have mentioned it is a bit on the heavy side and not easy to extend in the raised position. The wife (5'-2") cannot work it, it's too much to even move around a room, so I have to always set it up for her.

    To get around the extension problem and keep the transporting length down, I bought a 3 section extension ladder this last year. It works great, and is about 2/3rds of the weight. It is only 23' extended, but at 39#s and only inches over 9' collapsed, it's handy. I also got one of the quick disconnect Werner ladder stabilizers which has proven useful.

    Best of luck on your choice.

    Werner 24 ft. Aluminum 3 Section Compact Extension Ladder 225 lb. Load Capacity Type II Duty Rating-D1224-3 at The Home Depot

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Got a pulley rigged for the bottom section. It works good and takes much of the cumbersome task of lifting the final section away. Now we're cookin'.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Extended the upper in the yard as shown in the video. Then, walked it in the upright position up the steps and onto the deck. At 17' it will just reach the gutter and you can lean it. Then, extend one more rung from the bottom section to get the proper over hang at the top. Jam screwdrivers in deck slots to prevent kickout at bottom. Done.
    Wow what a sweet Crib.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    I'm thinking I can install a rope and pulley for the final extension task.

    What do you think?
    John,

    That's what I did with my 26 foot Little Giant - it was the only way I could fully extend it as it was out of my reach when up, and too long for me to be at the balance point and set it up.

    You won't have that problem with the 17 footer as I can easily handle my 17 footer without a rope and pulley and still get it extended all the way out.

    The way I do my 26 footer is I open the ladder up out straight then raise it up as the balance point and my height (5'6") just allows me to reach beyond the balance point and control it going up (and down). Then I extend the lower section all the way up. Finally I use the rope and pulley to extend the top section out. I take it down in the reverse order, but the final lowering it to the ground is a bit more difficult going down than getting it up in that first step.

    I had many two story houses where my 17 footer would not even reach the eaves, it would go to the wall under the overhang. That's why I got the 26 foot one.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Any ladder that requires field modification (jury rigged pulleys and ropes) to operate as intended is a huge red flag.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    Any ladder that requires field modification (jury rigged pulleys and ropes) to operate as intended is a huge red flag.
    No field modification to the ladder itself, no different than adding a ladder hook or ladder standoff to keep it on the roof or away from the wall.

    It is one thing to make it easier to operate the ladder as it was intended to be operated, kind of like keeping it well lubricated so it opens and closes properly ... it is something else and entirely different to actually modify the ladder itself.

    Do you consider attaching a rope to the ladder so you can tie it off to be a field modification? If so, then, yeah, I guess John and I did "field modifications", if not, then neither John nor I did a field modification.

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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    No field modification to the ladder itself, no different than adding a ladder hook or ladder standoff to keep it on the roof or away from the wall.


    Do you consider attaching a rope to the ladder so you can tie it off to be a field modification? If so, then, yeah, I guess John and I did "field modifications", if not, then neither John nor I did a field modification.
    The photo shows at least bolt and that required drilling a hole into the actual ladder. That's more than just tying a rope to a rung.

    I'm not against creativity, but sometimes we are our own worst enemy when it comes to safety.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    The photo shows at least bolt and that required drilling a hole into the actual ladder. That's more than just tying a rope to a rung.

    I'm not against creativity, but sometimes we are our own worst enemy when it comes to safety.

    Dom.
    Hi Dom,

    Do you think the hole I drilled in the rung is affecting the structural integrity of the ladder?

    My Werner 28' ext is done that way from the factory. Only difference is they use a rivot instead of a screw.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    John, I'm not sure, probably not right away, but at 20 feet plus in the air, I would feel safer if that rung wasn't drilled.

    Don't get me wrong, I can see what you're trying to do, but over time a bored beam or joist shows signs of damage or failure.

    Having fell from a ladder previously, I tend to take a more cautious approach than when I was younger.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Dom I know where you are coming from but as a comfort to John, that top step always has a rung of the next section parallel to it. So the rung could bend but his foot will be on the other rung as well.
    John if you can rig that with a little electric winch, I'd be interested.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    John, you just gave me an idea......


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    The photo shows at least bolt and that required drilling a hole into the actual ladder. That's more than just tying a rope to a rung.

    I'm not against creativity, but sometimes we are our own worst enemy when it comes to safety.

    Dom.
    Dom,

    I missed that bolt into the rung because I wrapped the strap around the rung on mine without doing anything to the rung.

    I saw the strap and thought "Just like I did."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Dom,

    I missed that bolt into the rung because I wrapped the strap around the rung on mine without doing anything to the rung.

    I saw the strap and thought "Just like I did."
    It's not a through bolt. It's a lag screw. The hole is 3/16".


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    It's not a through bolt. It's a lag screw. The hole is 3/16".
    John,

    I doubt it is needed. I used a truss strap and bent it around the rung and hung the pulley on a bolt I ran through two holes in the strap (had to drill larger holes in the strap for the bolt), does not slide side to side on the rung - never gave me any problems.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    I wish they made a ladder like that with a narrow top section.

    I know why they have the wide feet for step ladder mode, but we could still use a step ladder with one narrow set of feet.
    I love the way my Jaws can be stripped down to a 3-piece. It is a very safe ladder this way and weighs less than 25 lbs.

    Vacant house and the gutter was overflowing, hence the wet tiles.

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    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    That's what I did with my 26 foot Little Giant - it was the only way I could fully extend it as it was out of my reach when up, and too long for me to be at the balance point and set it up.

    You won't have that problem with the 17 footer as I can easily handle my 17 footer without a rope and pulley and still get it extended all the way out.

    The way I do my 26 footer is I open the ladder up out straight then raise it up as the balance point and my height (5'6") just allows me to reach beyond the balance point and control it going up (and down). Then I extend the lower section all the way up. Finally I use the rope and pulley to extend the top section out. I take it down in the reverse order, but the final lowering it to the ground is a bit more difficult going down than getting it up in that first step.

    I had many two story houses where my 17 footer would not even reach the eaves, it would go to the wall under the overhang. That's why I got the 26 foot one.
    More often than not I get onto a porch roof or garage roof with the 17-foot LG than pull it up onto the lower roof and go up from there. Whenever I can I prefer that over getting the 28-foot extension ladder off the SUV. That works well on low sloped shingle roofs. flat roofs, and many gabled roofs with a decent pitch (I often straddle the ridge with the ladder).


  50. #50
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    More often than not I get onto a porch roof or garage roof with the 17-foot LG than pull it up onto the lower roof and go up from there. Whenever I can I prefer that over getting the 28-foot extension ladder off the SUV. That works well on low sloped shingle roofs. flat roofs, and many gabled roofs with a decent pitch (I often straddle the ridge with the ladder).
    Mark,

    I did that whenever I could, but probably 1-2 times a month I would need my 26 footer to get on the roof.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    (I often straddle the ridge with the ladder).
    I quit doing that after almost crapping my pants one day. The lower rung was touching the ridge, so the feet had no grip. Whatever everybody does, remember, getting back down can be way trickier and more dangerous than getting up.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Ladder choice

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Whatever everybody does, remember, getting back down can be way trickier and more dangerous than getting up.
    I suspect that many of us ... the "us" includes me ... have put ourselves in that position before and then stood on the roof a while trying to figure out how to get back down without calling for backup or the fire department to get us down with their ladder truck. That would be a bit embarrassing, to say the least.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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