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  1. #1
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Is IR the future of home inspection?

    With all the inspection I’m doing on homes that have been empty for sometime due to bad loans. The infrared camera is showing moisture condition and mold condition like never before. The buyers are getting a better deal due to the infrared camera that is exposing these conditions.

    Some agents are not happy about what we can find now. And others are just in shock over the findings. Agents new question are what do we do with the new finding and how do we correct these new type of finding?

    The box is open!!!

    Best

    Ron

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  2. #2
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Are you assumng that all colder areas show mositure and mold?


  3. #3
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    What do you think? For get the photos thats not the question or what the agents are asking.

    Best

    Ron


  4. #4

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    It depends on what you are seeing and your skill at interpreting it. Thermography depends very much on the skill of the Thermographer. What's the training background. What is the knowledge of building sciences and thermodynamics? Are you seeing an anomaly or reflection, is the delta T enough for good readings?

    Given that conditions are right and you ARE seeing possible moisture, the standard is to VERIFY the cameras findings by other means. The camera only allows you to quickly pare down the areas of concern for further investigation. Now is the time to defer to moisture intrusion specialists, mold specialists and remediation people. Anything more and you are opening yourself up to huge liability.
    I don't know about you but I'm insured as an "Industrial Photographer". I take pictures only. I don't interpret the findings to the client. I don't put myself forth as a "Moisture Intrusion Specialist". Careful wording of your findings as an "anomaly requiring further investigation by a qualified specialist" is pretty safe. This is where your skill comes in. If you report false data, you are not going to get much more work and may even kill the validity of Infrared in the eyes of the Realtors and clients.

    Last edited by Dana Bostick; 04-18-2008 at 11:18 AM. Reason: clarification
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  5. #5
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Every time I see some crap like: "Is IR the future of home inspection?", I just need to heave.

    I would really, really like to take the biggest one of these cameras made and stick it right into the lower socket of the next schmuck that posts something like that on this forum.

    Give it a phuquing break, please!

    Aaron


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Dana, Very true, I agree.

    Also many IR guys can expect to miss other important issues due to lack of time to do everything in the SOP and reluctancy to leave the camera laying out while crawling into the attic etc. to do what we normally do.

    It's going to be an interesting next 5 years as this business continues to crawl out of the dark ages and clients get smarter about who to hire and who not to hire. It's not IR that will lead the changes, its excellent inspectors.

    How many inspectors are still producing crappy checklist/scribbled reports that no one can read? Yes, they are still out there but slowly going away.


    The next round that will cease operations is the guy's that bury important problems in inspector speak within the report where no one will notice.
    They have no sample reports on their website and provide watered down realtor friendly inspections.

    In my area we have guy's who do not adequately and properly report PB pipe, knob and tube wiring, FPE panels, Zinsco panels, old HVAC, old water heaters, old roofs etc.

    The cost of litigation is the only thing saving them from major lawsuits.


  7. #7
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Aaron you must get sick alot. I think you will need to have an open door with your Doctor. Just because other inspectors are taking things to another level is no need to get sick.Yuk. may be a good rag for your shoes will help.

    Love ya.

    Best

    Ron


  8. #8

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Aaron, put a sock in it. <grin> The future is in high tech, green homes, energy efficiency and those that take the time to LOOK at what's coming down the pike.
    If you choose to do your inspections on a legal pad in #2 pencil and hand draw the pictures, no one is stopping you. But the new, savvy buyer is very tech aware and expects the same from the people he hires to do his inspections.

    The dinosaurs became extinct because they could not adapt to changing conditions.
    My advice is to not follow them into the tar pits.

    I don't personally us my IR Camera on home inspections, it's against the SoP's But I DO sell it as a service and I DO find things that you just wouldn't see with the naked eye.
    I can make $1000 in one evening doing a roof scan and saving some building owner many thousands of dollars for un-needed repairs and they love paying me for it.

    IR has been around for many years and is heavily used in industry for predictive maintenance and non-destructive testing. It's track record is indisputable. The records show that for every dollar spent on IR inspections, $20 is saved in repairs that were unscheduled and undetected. Not just the cost of repairs but the much larger cost of plant and personnel down time while unscheduled repairs are being done.

    This forum and many others are designed for OPEN discussion of ideas. Why would you want to stop that?

    Dana Bostick, Certified Level 1 Thermographer, retired General Contractor and GEEK and proud of it!

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    I think any tool that can improve your inspection is a good thing. However it is getting away from home inspection and into more of a specialized evaluation, and should be marketed and sold as such.

    I know I am certainly glad that there are medical specialists that have an arsenal of high tech non intrusive testing devices available. I sure wouldn't want to go back to the days when the barber was also the guy that took your teeth out.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Rick it looks like you are selling Cameras. and im not sure if this is the correct place to do that. at least you are converting a post that i put up sometime back it into a sales pitch.

    Best

    Ron


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Rick,

    Click on the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page, I'm sure Brian (owner of this FREE site for home inspectors) will be glad to set you up with sponsoring an ad or a thread.

    Brian keeps this FREE for us home inspectors through the ads placed by vendors such as yourself.

    Brian should be contacting you soon to help you set that up.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    I find things al the time with my IR camera that cannot be seen with the naked eye.
    I will not do an inspection without it.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    I think the IR technology is fascinating and has it's place in our industry. That being said, I don't think that place is at a standard inspection.

    I think it opens you up to huge liability to hand the client 3 pages of SoP and contracts that explain it's a visual inspection and then break out a tool that 'sees' behind the walls.

    I watched a scenario unfold during the eifs hayday in my area. Guys came out with moisture meters, probes and all kinds of gizmos that could see behind the wall. They'd identify damage and recommend the wall be torn open. Sometimes there was damage, sometimes not. In the 'not' case the next logical question is "Who's paying to put this back together?" Enough people felt it should be the inspector to run a few of these guys out of the business.

    Claiming to see through walls is a risky business. But it can be profitable so I guess it all depends on your business plan, risk tolerence and training/education.


  14. #14
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    Cool Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    First and for most home inspections are visual and not technically exhaustive. When you bring in technical equipment to find problems, that places you under a whole different inspection realm. I believe if you find a problem with something other than visual and there develops other technical problems in any other area such as low freon on the A/C unit, you could be sued for not being technically exhaustive in all areas of your inspection. If you want to use IR cameras, moisture meters, gas detectors, a/c gauges, duct cameras and the like you should become a technical inspector and leave the visual home inspector trade. I believe if someone used a IR camera on my house and found areas that were not insulated and I lost the sale I could own that home inspectors company, simply because efficiency's are not apart of the home inspection process. Second if you say that your IR camera found moisture on some part of my house that showed no signs of moisture without tearing out something. The buyer then insisted that the sheet rock be removed and I did it and found nothing once the damage was done and they still did not buy my house, I will own your company. Taking home inspections to a new level, that is way above the norm or SOP is not in any ones best interest. That's my rant, I'm greased and ready. Tony M.


  15. #15
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    copy that.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Tony,

    List the tools you use, I can tell you if you do a truly "visual" inspection just by looking at your tool list.

    ANY tool which is used to enhance what/how well you can see something puts you above doing a purely "visual" inspection.

    I suspect you will come closer to doing a purely "visual" inspection than the rest of us, but I doubt even you are doing a purely "visual" inspection.

    List your tools and test me, see if I am correct or not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Jerry...

    I walk to my inspections and use a candle for light. I beat the panel cover off with a rock so I can check the wiring. I stick a bare wire in the GFCI outlet to see if it trips (it hurts but it works!). One time to check for a gas leak I put my mouth over the suspected leak and almost died but I found the leak.

    You see...I can be as silly as you are by making outrageous statements. It don't prove anything but at least now I can be like you by trying to prove a point by using extremes.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    You see...I can be as silly as you are by making outrageous statements.

    I'm not making outrageous statements, you guys who say you do a "visual" inspection and will not use an infrared camera, but will use any other numerous tools and equipment, you are making an outrageous statement as what a "visual" inspection is - that it is "whatever you want it to be".

    Fair enough, but then do not say another inspector is doing anything other than a "visual" inspection just be they chose to use *different* tools and equipment than you use.

    Like it or not, *IF YOU* can define what YOU consider to be "visual", *THEY* can define what THEY consider to be "visual".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  19. #19
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Jerry has a very strong point on this issue.

    I have another take on this part of being sued. I have look at plumbing pipes and saw a leak then another inspectors was behind me 1/2 HR later No leaks. ? Things can be there one day and gone the next and then back. My point is an IR scan can show something today and it may not look like it did the next...

    Best

    Ron


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

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  21. #21
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    Smile Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    I use IR and it is not the answer to everything but it deffinitely enhances the inspection. Primarily used for my own convenience, great for checking in floor radiant. As far as someone owning my company, well I think there is something called insurance. Furthermore, 2 leaks were discoved in a heated driveway using IR on an inspection the other day. Cost to replace, $8,000. Next time the guy needs an inspection who do you think he will use? Probably the guys wanted to own my company Just a thought, don't want to ruffle and feathers. Would you want your inspector to use IR if you were buying a home?


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Flashlight
    Wiggie tester
    Three prong tester
    Voltage sniffer
    Screwdrivers, Awl
    Ladder
    Tape Recorder
    Pen/Pencil
    Digital Camera (occaisonally picks up ghosts but I don't report on them)

    JP.... there you have it

    I don't plug my nose or wear ear plugs but I'm hoping that's not where you're heading with this.

    And please don't claim that because my electrical testers penetrate the surface of the wall it's no longer visual.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Flashlight
    Wiggie tester
    Three prong tester
    Voltage sniffer
    Screwdrivers, Awl
    Ladder
    Tape Recorder
    Pen/Pencil
    Digital Camera (occaisonally picks up ghosts but I don't report on them)

    JP.... there you have it

    I don't plug my nose or wear ear plugs but I'm hoping that's not where you're heading with this.

    And please don't claim that because my electrical testers penetrate the surface of the wall it's no longer visual.
    Matt,

    It's not that "And please don't claim that because my electrical testers penetrate the surface of the wall it's no longer visual." your electrical testers "penetrate the surface of the wall" which makes it no longer visual, it's the fact that the electrical tester is testing things which 'are not visual'.

    Flashlight (I know I am pushing the "visual" envelope here, but that is the point to this exercise ... but if you can't "see it" without the use of a flashlight, then is using a flashlight still "visual" - I would argue that yes it is still "visual", but threw this in to make people think.)

    Wiggie tester (definitely no longer visual - you are testing things which 'cannot be seen')

    Three prong tester (see Wiggie above)

    Voltage sniffer (see Wiggie above)

    Screwdrivers, (if you have to remove a cover, that is "invasive", even though it is to allow you to see it visually after the cover is removed, but, when used for that purpose, I could still argue that it was a visual inspection)

    Awl (used to find things which are not visual, or to verify things which where visual, however, as soon as you use the awl, you are going beyond a visual inspection)

    Ladder (see flashlight and screwdriver above, similar comment)

    Tape Recorder (works for visual inspections)

    Pen/Pencil (works for visual inspections ... unless you use them as the awl)

    Digital Camera (occaisonally picks up ghosts but I don't report on them) (works for visual inspections, even the ghosts)

    Okay, so for a visual inspection you would need to leave all but these behind - you could take:
    - Screwdrivers, (without getting too technical about the "visual" aspect)
    - Ladder
    - Tape Recorder
    - Pen/Pencil
    - Digital Camera (occaisonally picks up ghosts but I don't report on them)



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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    The choice I currently offer my clients:

    1) I can use IR as an adjunct to visual inspection in the same way I use a moisture meter, observing only in locations where I expect I may see a moisture problem.

    This does not add much time to my inspections, and is included in my normal inspection fee.

    2) I can use IR as a survey tool, and scan all or selected portion of the interior and exterior of the structure. This may or many not detect actual problems, but it will often detect false positives, each of which has to be separately investigated.

    This can take a lot of extra time, and I must charge for the time spent.

    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 05-22-2008 at 09:20 AM.
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    Cool Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Jerry, I'm not pushing the point of visual, as much as technically exhaustive. When the inspection involves schooling, licenses, or certifications to perform any part of a visual inspection that is where we must draw a line between Home Inspecting and technically exhaustive inspections. If any home inspector has to be trained to use the list of tools listed above, they are a disgrace to this profession. I don't believe any one will be taken to court for using the list of tools above. I think using tools in only one or more areas that are technically exhaustive sets the inspector up on a higher plain that could in up in court. There the SOP will act against the home inspector and most inspectors will be happy to go against the inspector in court. The IR camera is a cool tool, but it should be used as a second inspection process not apart of the home inspection.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    "I'm not pushing the point of visual, as much as technically exhaustive. When the inspection involves schooling, licenses, or certifications to perform any part of a visual inspection that is where we must draw a line between Home Inspecting and technically exhaustive inspections."

    Tony,

    Using tools and equipment does not make the inspection "technically exhaustive".

    For that, you would need to bring in an engineer to go over the structure, an HVAC company to go through all parts of the HVAC system, a plumber to go through all parts of the plumbing system, etc.

    You said "First and for most home inspections are visual and not technically exhaustive.", and using an infrared camera is still "visual", and no where near "technically exhaustive".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  27. #27
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    Thumbs down Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Sorry, Jerry your more Wrong than gay marriage. The dictionary defines technical as 1. of or derived from technique. 2.a. Having special skill or practical knowledge esp, in a mechanical or scientific field. b. Used in or peculiar to a given field or profession; specialized. 3.a. Belonging or relating to a given subject. b. Of, relating to, or involving the practical, mechanical, or industrial arts or the applied sciences. A Technician is An expert in a technique, as; a. One whose occupation REQUIRES TRAINING in a specific technical process: Now let me see you tell Dana Bostick that their certified level 1 thermographer status means that they bought a IR camera and opened the box. Also, tell me where you got your flash light, 3 prong tester, screwdriver, training. That's what I thought! There is no training for those because they are NOT technical tools. IR cameras are definitely Technically exhaustive, and should only be used by trained professional and used for that profession. Admit Defeat.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    You just know its a matter of time and

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  29. #29

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Tony; thanks for recognizing that it takes a bit of knowledge to "read" the IR data. Without pretty technical training in thermodynamics, heat transfer, building science and a lot of experience in reading thermographs, you will most assuredly fire a foot bullet.

    Even now, I go back and re-evaluate some pics it took a while ago and think "Sheesh...I miss read that one" You can even read the reflection of the IR you are emitting with your body, bouncing back at you. You need to be able to evaluate all the reasons you might be getting an "anomaly" in this spot. Reflection? thermal bridging? moisture? leaking cold air? termites? Always verify with other means. ASTM C-1153 standard for thermal IR evaluation of flat roof systems requires verification of calls with core samples!

    Given all this, I agree, IR is not for use during a normal HI. It should be a separate service offered for specific needs. I will pull it out to check radiant heating systems because I get the data in a few seconds rather than waiting 10-15 mins for it to come up to speed. I'll also play show and tell with the Realtors for promo reasons.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Dana...

    Don't you think that once you promote your "new toy" then from that point on with the Realtor you the "best HI with the latest technology?" You are no longer a regular home inspector that follows the basic SOP..you are now a "super inspector". The state SOP's are your friend if you use them properly. I no longer own any test equipment except for a multi-meter. I sold all my other test equipment so when I am asked under oath why i did not find a wet ceiling I can honesty say I do not own a moisture meter. I had three and sold them all. I don't lie good in court.

    I love technology as much as the next person but putting your neck on the line for a few extra bucks does not make good sense to me.

    Anyone can buy the IR equipment so that is not a big deal. They will sell it to a monkey if they have the money. Until the IR surveys are listed in the SOP's as a requirement you are taking an unnecessary risk IMHO.


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    Sorry, Jerry your more Wrong than gay marriage.
    And you are as wrong as a bad heterosexual marriage.

    Let's see, a good enduring gay marriage or a bad heterosexual marriage - which is 'right' and which is 'wrong'?

    Tony, you need to keep your own mind clean before you start judging others ... let's see, what was that ... something about 'judge not least ye be judged', yet the ones who are the most judgmental are those who claim to be christians? Something smells real fishy there.

    Be that as it may ...

    Let's take a REAL SIMPLE definition: "visual"

    Main Entry: 1vi·su·al Pronunciation: \ˈvi-zhə-wəl, -zhəl; ˈvizh-wəl\ Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin visualis, from Latin visus sight, from vidēre to see Date: 15th century 1 : of, relating to, or used in vision <visual organs>
    2 : attained or maintained by sight <visual impressions>
    3 : visible <visual objects>
    4 : producing mental images : vivid
    5 : done or executed by sight only <visual navigation>
    6 : of, relating to, or employing visual aids

    Could not be any clearer if I had said it myself - home inspections *ARE NOT* "visual" inspections.

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    They are in NC..........

    (b) Home inspectors shall:
    (1) Provide a written contract, signed by the client, before the home inspection is performed that shall:
    (A) State that the home inspection is in accordance with the Standards of Practice of the North Carolina Home Inspector Licensure Board;
    (B) Describe what services shall be provided and their cost; and
    (C) State, when an inspection is for only one or a limited number of systems or components, that the inspection is limited to only those systems or components.
    (2) Inspect readily visible and readily accessible installed systems and components listed in this Section; and
    (3) Submit a written report to the client that shall:
    (A) Describe those systems and components required to be described in Rules .1106 through .1115 of this Section;
    (B) State which systems and components designated for inspection in this Section have been inspected, and state any systems or components designated for inspection that were not inspected, and the reason for not inspecting;
    (C) State any systems or components so inspected that do not function as intended, allowing for normal wear and tear, or adversely affect the habitability of the dwelling;
    (D) State whether the condition reported requires repair or subsequent observation, or warrants further investigation by a specialist; and
    (E) State the name, license number, and signature of the person supervising the inspection and the name, license number, and signature of the person conducting the inspection


    Last edited by James Duffin; 05-23-2008 at 07:10 PM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Could not be any clearer if I had said it myself - home inspections *ARE NOT* "visual" inspections.
    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    They are in NC..........
    James,

    Just because a state, or many states, may call them 'visual inspections' does not make them "visual" inspections.

    And this:
    I sold all my other test equipment so when I am asked under oath why i did not find a wet ceiling I can honesty say I do not own a moisture meter.
    Is a sure way to be found liable for 'not finding' things.

    You will be held to the standard of care of the area, and, if 50&#37; or more of the inspectors in your area own and use moisture meters, *YOU* will be expected to use that same "standard of care" and use moisture meters too, and be held liable is you do not.

    It is too late to go back to doing true "visual" inspections with your hands in your pockets ... the standard of care has far exceeded that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Jerry...

    You are wrong again my friend.


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    Talking Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Thanks Jerry, Your correct once again, Everything is judged by a standard. The standard of Christianity is The Person The Lord Jesus The Christ, and the standard of home inspections is the SOP. Follow the standards of either one and there is NO WAY you can go wrong. Add anything to or take away anything away from either one of these standards and there is Hell to pay. Rev. 22: 18-19. and fellow inspectors.

    Last edited by Tony Mount; 05-23-2008 at 07:41 PM. Reason: additional info

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Tony, you should be ashamed of yourself for exposing your pathetic, right-wing ideals on this board.
    That having been said.
    I am unclear on much of the IR issue. I thought Jerry was unduly harsh to Ron on another thread about IR but now I'm not sure.
    From the pictures Ron and others have posted of IR, it seems to me that training and interpretation skills are essential in using one of these cameras. Otherwise are you really telling people anything factual?
    Therefore...
    - Is there any training involved when you buy one?
    - How long/much time do you spend experimenting at home/friends houses learning the ins/outs of the thing before you start charging clients?
    - Do you really throw it in as an HI freebie/marketing or is it mostly a separate line item?
    - How does it work with the colors in terms of cold/moisture? Is exterior cold blue and moisture also blue since it may usually be cooler than non moist air/materials?
    I'm really just wondering about this all. I am not looking at buying one anytime. It seems like it could be a great tool but also a terrible liability.

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  37. #37

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Marcus,
    • Flames aside, yes, training and interpretation skills are very needed.
    • Many of the manufacturers offer a training package deal if you buy. there are stand alone schools as well that are not "tied" to any certain brand.
    • Like any new toy, you start using it in every situation you can think of just to see what it is capable of. Just get familiar with the tool. Then get trained. Now play some more, applying the new knowledge. Do "mock" inspections on friends places.
    • When you get very comfortable, start looking for clients.
    • No, I do not include it as a "freeby" with my inspections. I'll pitch it as a separate inspection (targeted at an area like insulation verification, something that would not normally be included in a Visual HI) in addition to the regular.
    • the picture on the screen is an artificially colored representation based on temperature differences. There are various "palettes" that you can use.
    • The color merely highlights areas of concern or temperature difference that COULD be a problem. Your skill and knowledge is what helps you determine if it is a problem or something else.
    It's only a tool. And like most tools the guy swinging the hammer determines the outcome.
    Dana
    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Tony, you should be ashamed of yourself for exposing your pathetic, right-wing ideals on this board.
    That having been said.
    I am unclear on much of the IR issue. I thought Jerry was unduly harsh to Ron on another thread about IR but now I'm not sure.
    From the pictures Ron and others have posted of IR, it seems to me that training and interpretation skills are essential in using one of these cameras. Otherwise are you really telling people anything factual?
    Therefore...
    - Is there any training involved when you buy one?
    - How long/much time do you spend experimenting at home/friends houses learning the ins/outs of the thing before you start charging clients?
    - Do you really throw it in as an HI freebie/marketing or is it mostly a separate line item?
    - How does it work with the colors in terms of cold/moisture? Is exterior cold blue and moisture also blue since it may usually be cooler than non moist air/materials?
    I'm really just wondering about this all. I am not looking at buying one anytime. It seems like it could be a great tool but also a terrible liability.


    True Professionals, Inc. Property Consultant
    877-466-8504

  38. #38
    Brandon Chew's Avatar
    Brandon Chew Guest

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    The choice I currently offer my clients:

    1) I can use IR as an adjunct to visual inspection in the same way I use a moisture meter, observing only in locations where I expect I may see a moisture problem.

    This does not add much time to my inspections, and is included in my normal inspection fee.

    2) I can use IR as a survey tool, and scan all or selected portion of the interior and exterior of the structure. This may or many not detect actual problems, but it will often detect false positives, each of which has to be separately investigated.

    This can take a lot of extra time, and I must charge for the time spent.
    Michael - Setting aside the debate about the term "visual inspection", I really like the way you've formed and explained those two choices.


  39. #39
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Well, hmmmmmmmmmm. IR, no IR, termite sniffing do, no termite sniffing dog, free foundation analysis, no foundation analysis.

    Personally IR, termite sniffing dog, "free foundation analysis", use what you want. The big question is are you charging for all that. If not then you should be ashamed of yourself.

    I inspect in Texas. Honestly I can not tell you how many companies give away termite inspections with the Home Inspection. Give away free IR. Give away free foundation analysis. I have reasonable pricing. Certainly not the most inexpensive but not the most expensive either. I actually have inspectors complaining because my rates are reasonable, in most cases I check these folks out and find out that they are giving away the farm for 25 to fifty dollars more. I have a termite license but it is not active. I always use that other set of eyes. Personally I believe that I am there to do a professional home inspection and not squeeze in 2 to 3 other inspections in the same allotted time.

    To much more to say. I'll end it now.

    We are generalists and yes there is a limit to what we should do. If there is a concern in any area such as the HVAC unit or AC condenser I state what I found and go on with the inspection. I tell the folks quite plain and simple that they need to consult with an HVAC tech and have the system (not just the component) evaluated by an HVAC contractor for service and repair. I do not open a can of worms and go into detail about anything else but the concerns I may have found. I do not spend the next hour checking every component of the system. If there is a concern then an HVAC tech should evaluate the system for all possible concerns and repairs needed. Period, did I say period. If a garbage disposal is not working and just buzzes because it is bound up I tell my client such and have them consult a plumber. I do not go into a paragraph of possibilities.

    Do I think things are getting a little deep and Home inspection will go buy the way of so many other industries and instead of the percentage of home inspections going up I believe they will go down by a race to the top of the pricing spectrum. Home inspection is not brain surgery. Please lets not make it such.

    Again, we are generalists, not high tech technically exhaustive specialists. There are foundation specialist, plumbers, electricians etc. etc. If you are going to market your business as the most technically exhaustive home inspector in the industry then do such and dam it, charge for it. I am not talking an extra 25 to fifty dollars.


  40. #40
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Oh yeah, I forgot. Billing yourself as the most technically exhaustive inspector??????????? Watch out, you are opening yourself up for such a serious anount of come backs on you because they hire you as the most techinically exhaustive inspector. You know what, you do not even have to bill yourself as such. They will come back at you for the sake that you were suppose to be the most high tech because of you equipment advertising.


  41. #41
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    I guess I can't shut up.

    What if you do not see something through the walls?????????????? This means if you pull that thing out and say anything about what you found with it,,,,,,,,,Uh oh, you better find everything! Think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my, could I just go on forever.

    I have been building, remodelling and inspecting homes and businesses for over 30 years. I'm 54. Are we getting a little deep in home inspection????? I personally do think so.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    The standard of Christianity is The Person The Lord Jesus The Christ

    Wonder if his brothers Juan, Jorge, and Julio would agree with that. I doubt his sister Juanita would.

    Tony,

    Take you religious crap to some religious board.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I have been building, remodelling and inspecting homes and businesses for over 30 years. I'm 54. Are we getting a little deep in home inspection????? I personally do think so.
    Good start ... in a few more years, maybe your experience will allow you to see what it is about?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  44. #44
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Jerry

    I voiced my opinion and you took it as an attack from what I gather. I left three threads and what you got out of it was that I did not know what it was all about.

    I gave you some good advise. Using IR is not like using a moisture meter when you see possible moisture or a stain that may be moisture. You are still basing it on your visual inspection.

    If you use your IR and I am not talking about a thermometer, and report on your findings with that IR then you better look at every square inch of ceilings and walls and floors. Once you use it they will fully expect (and rightfully so) that you find every item in the home and possibly under the slab, behind every wet wall, every minute air leak in duct work.

    You should offer your IR inspections as a totally different inspection, not combined with you home inspection. You do not have time in a home inspection to evaluate every single square inch of the home.

    I do not know your age or your past experience but I do certainly hope that advise offered by me is not scoffed at. I have been working and have owned construction/real estate owed businesses for 36 years including inspection. Does that make me better than the next inspector. Maybe, maybe not.

    Again, this is my personal opinion. My belief is that if we keep taking Home inspection further, and further into the technical field we are opening ourselves up to mind boggling come backs. I am not against IR but again, I believe it should be a separate inspection business, not a home inspection.

    If you do use it in a home inspection then you should give your clients a separate contract to read and sign that explains its use and what you can and cannot be held liable for.

    Oh yeah, paying thousands of dollars for this tool, I hope you are charging handsomely for its use.


  45. #45
    John McKenna's Avatar
    John McKenna Guest

    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Like any tool... IR requires training and all findings should be verified.
    No tool is a silver bullet in itself, but they can enhance the ability to find
    defects. The SoP is the minimum standard and does not stop me from doing
    a superior inspection for my clients. By finding more defects, I am reducing
    my liability. You must set the proper expectation with the client and not
    tell them that an IR camera is just like x-ray, because it is not.

    In the hands of a trained professional, the IR camera can reveal things
    not seen by other methods. That is a fact.

    Consumer's Guide to Infrared Thermography - NACHI.TV Episode 33


  46. #46
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    Talking Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    OH, Jerry, permalink #31 on this post clearly show that you are the religious hypocrite posting crap. The truth that I posted will be confessed by you personally in the days to come.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Is IR the future of home inspection?

    Tony,

    You still have that diamond?

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 05-25-2008 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Because I allowed Tony to suck me into his religious rant, so I came back and changed it.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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