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  1. #1
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Got a call from a home owner that put in new hard wood flooring a year ago.
    this week out comes wood boring beetles all over the place. the flooring company told the owner to go jump in a lake. this flooring has a lot of holes in it just a mess. the cost to fumigate the home $ 6K replacement of the damage flooring another 4K I have been seeing more and more hard wood flooring and new furnishing with beetles this past year. Cosco sent me out on one inspection to look at a desk that the was from a company in So.Calif that was ship in from China. just full of beetles. Cosco. was fast to act and to provide the people with a new desk. Im going to be checking all hard wood flooring just a bit closer.

    This home owner will be after this flooring company.

    Best

    Ron

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz Kelly View Post
    The pest companies I have talked to say there is no sure way to get rid of them except remove the flooring. Can anybody confirm this?

    Fumigation is the only treatment for drywood termites and wood boring beetles that effectively penetrates the entire structure in one application. It can completely eliminate termites and beetles, even in areas not accessible for spot treatments.
    The effectiveness of gas fumigation is confirmed by more than 30 years of university research, practical use and published reports.

    Best

    Ron


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    I'm sure we're probably talking about powder post beetles. You could treat the wood with some borates, but the damage is done.

    We usually tell our clients to tear out all the wood instead of spending the money on treatments.

    If properly fumigated with methyl bromide, you could probably get rid of the problem.

    Most of the wood I've seen infested has been some type of ash type material.

    rick


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Here we go...

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    Talking Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Powder Post beetles can only be killed by heat that is the only way to kill the larva which is done with the drying process. All the wood must be removed and kiln dried to guarantee Powderpost Beetles | University of Kentucky Entomology


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Control of Anobiid, Bostrichid and lyctid powderpost Beetles and old house borers. if I see an infestation of beetles. for me its a fumigation. Then we can talk about wood repairs. In calif. the libility can be to much. as the cost of a fumigation on this home 6K Plus. if you miss an adjacent area that is infested and only deal with what you can see. O-BOY That a mess i dont want to deal with. Its been my company policy for some 30 years to fumigate all beetle infestation.

    Best

    Ron


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Tony M.

    You need to re-read the article you posted.

    rick


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    Powder Post beetles can only be killed by heat that is the only way to kill the larva which is done with the drying process. All the wood must be removed and kiln dried to guarantee Powderpost Beetles | University of Kentucky Entomology
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Tony M.

    You need to re-read the article you posted.

    rick
    Rick,

    Tony stating that is like Don stating (on the other thread regarding garage/house separation) that 20 minute doors are "required" simply because that is *one of the options listed*.

    Hopefully you have better communication skills with Tony than I have had with Don, I have not yet been able to get Don to see his error.

    I am beginning to presume the problem with Don "not getting it" is because I have not been able to communicate to his understanding.

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ...Tony stating that is like Don stating (on the other thread regarding garage/house separation) that 20 minute doors are "required" simply because that is *one of the options listed*.
    I didn't even see TM's claim about kiln-dried wood, etc. listed as an option. I guess my eyesight is failing.


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    John,

    Did you see the part in the article from the university about the best trucks of 2009?

    rick


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    Powder Post beetles can only be killed by heat that is the only way to kill the larva which is done with the drying process. All the wood must be removed and kiln dried to guarantee Powderpost Beetles | University of Kentucky Entomology

    Tony look up ( Methyl Bromide ) or ( VikaneŽ gas fumigant )

    Best

    Ron


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Tony look up ( Methyl Bromide ) or ( Vikane® gas fumigant )

    Best

    Ron
    When I worked for Orkin in Houston TX from 1981-1983 selling termite control this is what we used for fumigation's. We "tented" about 2 homes a week out of the branch office that I worked in. Mostly for drywoods and beetles, every now and then for rats and other pest when they were really bad. The beetles were almost always brought in with furniture. It is a gas that will kill anything and everything. Even kills house plants, gold fish, fluffy the cat, it also will tarnish silver. That's another story about a home in River Oaks owned by a Mr. Allbritton!

    We also fumigated containers of wood items at the port of Houston.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 07-23-2008 at 09:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    Powder Post beetles can only be killed by heat that is the only way to kill the larva which is done with the drying process. All the wood must be removed and kiln dried to guarantee Powderpost Beetles | University of Kentucky Entomology
    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    I didn't even see TM's claim about kiln-dried wood, etc. listed as an option. I guess my eyesight is failing.
    John,

    I assumed (silly of me, I know) that Tony was referencing this part "Since wood moisture levels below 13%" and turning that into "kiln dried".

    Maybe that is because I have been conversing with Don about the same type of "distance thinking" (new term I am inventing here, adapting "distance learning" to be applicable to this) in trying to connect to unrelated thoughts as being the same thought.

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Hey Ron,

    I thought use of methyl bromide was not allowed in CA except if the building was well away from other buildings or the property line.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    You know Gunnar you got me on that one. I dont do Fume as a prime contractor. I have the owner contract with the fume company.

    Its been 8 years that i did a fume as the prime.

    VikaneŽ is the norm in our neck of the wood. Thats why the cost is so much these days. but Methyl Bromide is still used by some.

    ( ITS TAST GOOD ON CORN FLAKES )

    Best

    Ron


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Jerry's opinions should remain with Jerry and any further posting with reference to my name should not be made. Jerry feels that he knows everything and is the final say on an international model. The reason that so many states take different stances on that code is due to contractor arrogance that is evident in Jerry's interpretation. Oh yes Jerry, interpretation. You can't make me see what you see due to it being wrong. That code is a minimum standard that was created to have a separation between living space and an area designed to many times store fuels chemical, and machines also having stored fuel and chemicals. Thusly bud, a fire separation is required! Dream whatever dream you need to make you feel you are right, but again, I am done trying to explain a simple concept to you. Leave my name out of your further postings or I will reflect on your arrogance and ignorance in my postings. Alright>? Sry guys that this post doesn't relate to the topic, just don't appreciate Jerry's speaking out of his back end again.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    WHAT THE ?

    Ron


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Actual picture of beatles on hardwood flooring.

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Agel View Post
    -- That code is a minimum standard that was created to have a separation between living space and an area designed to many times store fuels chemical, and machines also having stored fuel and chemicals. Thusly bud, a fire separation is required!
    .
    Don,

    I think the key is Living space not attic space.

    Other wise gable & soffit vents entering the attic space would require a fire separation ?

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    Thumbs down Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    "Typically, the infested article was constructed from wood which was improperly dried or stored." "One final point to remember when applying borates or other liquid surface treatments is that the application will only control infestations which are accessible, i.e., wood that is exposed and can be reached for treatment. Infestations which have spread into walls or between floors are candidates for more drastic measures such as fumigation.




    Jerry, John, Ron, and Rick as you can see there is no garentee that borates will kill all the infestation and fumigation is to costly and may not be possiable on a wood floor. So, what would you want done on your new house?


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Billy, the separation is to slow the spread of smoke and flames from reaching other parts of the house. I should not have used living space as a loose term, I know. But the ceiling in the garage and wall/s that adjoins to dwelling and attic space must have this separation. A minimum of 20 mins of fire separation is required. Many other states require more. Florida,as someone keeps stating, requires none. Go figure! NC standards require that this be reported as a deficiency and to recommend corrections. I have seen first hand how quick a fire can claim a home that doesn't have the separation in comparison to one that had. Under 5 min took an entire 1900 sq ft house to the ground without the separation. Luckily the family was awake at the time and had a chance to escape. The other house had the fire extinguished in 22 minutes just immediately after breaching the ceiling drywall. That family was out of state. But the difference was complete home reconstruction versus a garage remodel. The key is the time factor allowed to escape. That is what the entire separation was intended for at it's finest. Write it, don't write it on an inspection...............Up to the individual and their experience. NC requires the separation, penetrations, and doors to maintain a min of 20 min resistance rating. Your state/s may not. Code interpretations vary from state to state. But here in NC this is not allowed to place an attic pull-down ladder in the ceiling of the garage without it being at least covered on the bottom side with 1/2" drywall to afford the same protection as the 1/2" drywall ceiling. Otherwise gentlemen, why would this code on this separation exist? For chits and giggles? Should have been a section on what color and texture of toilet seats need to be used as well.!??????????


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Agel View Post
    Thusly bud, a fire separation is required!
    Don,

    "separation" is required.

    It is *NOT* called "fire separation", but at least you have backed down from your stance of demanding that it is "fire rated". So at least that's a step in the right direction, just seems as though you still do not understand it.

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    "Jerry, John, Ron, and Rick as you can see there is no garentee that borates will kill all the infestation and fumigation is to costly and may not be possiable on a wood floor. So, what would you want done on your new house?
    Tony,

    "So, what would you want done on your new house?"

    Certainly not kiln drying it.

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Jerry, why is there a need for a separation? Is it to simply stop wind from entering? No, it's to slow smoke and fire. Hence the separation is a fire separation being that is why the separation was intended to slow the progression of. So back talk, dance with words, what ever makes you feel better. In my state we don't allow a attic pull down ladder (without alterations) as it breaches this separation requirement being that it is not resistant to direct flames for up to 20 min. That is the code here and is enforced my this state and any inspectors that catch it. You do what you want to do, I really could give two rat's a......... what you feel on the matter any longer Jerry. Now particularly sure if I ever have. But as for litigation consultant, oh boy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Buyer beware I suppose!

    Last edited by Don Agel; 07-24-2008 at 07:14 PM. Reason: Typos, lack of sleep

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Don,

    There are requirements by the States I am licensed in that might be different than other areas as well.

    Mississippi for example Requires in addition to my Home Inspection license to have a builders license to Inspect a Brand New Home. If it has ever been Sold even for a short period & unoccupied during that time, No Builders license Required for a Home Inspection.

    As far as seeing how Fire spreads a Buddy of mine has a Fire & Water Restoration Company. If I'm not busy I will help him out. After the Fire Investigator has released the property I have a crew on site. Once it enters the attic space it gets pulled into the ducts, runs a path to the venting then spreads along the underside of the sheathing.

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    "Typically, the infested article was constructed from wood which was improperly dried or stored." "One final point to remember when applying borates or other liquid surface treatments is that the application will only control infestations which are accessible, i.e., wood that is exposed and can be reached for treatment. Infestations which have spread into walls or between floors are candidates for more drastic measures such as fumigation.

    Jerry, John, Ron, and Rick as you can see there is no garentee that borates will kill all the infestation and fumigation is to costly and may not be possiable on a wood floor. So, what would you want done on your new house?
    Tony,

    Since you ask, I wouln't buy any home that I knew had powder post beetles. Even if you tear out all the visible infested areas, you risk them being in something you couldn't see.

    Fumigation would be the choice for the builder to take.

    Its kind of hard to place a home in a kiln to heat it up.

    rick


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    I would demand that it all the floor be removed and replaced after treatment to all surrounding walls.


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Tony,

    I have never actually found the beetles in any flooring. They have always been in custom made cabinetry, trim such as crown molding, library cases, and some window sills.

    One time, I even found them in one of those wooden panels on one of those Sub Zero's refrigerator / freezer.

    They are very difficult to rid of, thats for sure.

    rick


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Agel View Post
    But as for litigation consultant,
    Don,

    Apparently you have not yet opened your eyes yet. Are you still wet behind the ears too? Umbilical cord still attached?

    As a litigation consultant, and even you as a home inspector, I have to go by what is stated.

    And what is stated is "separation".

    It is not called "fire separation", and ... lawd have mercy ... it is certainly NOT called "fire rated".

    You can install 5/8" Type X gypsum board on the ceiling and have "separation", but you do NOT have a "fire rated ceiling", nor does that ceiling have a "fire rating".

    You only get the "fire rating" for a "fire rated ceiling" when you follow ALL of the requirements of the UL Design number for that design. ALL materials are listed, nail/screw pattern is stated, attachment to the trusses is states, the floor/roof above is stated (they have different design numbers for "ceiling/floor" and "ceiling/roof" areas.

    Sounds like you are slowly trying to weasel out from under your insistence that it be "fire rated" and have a "fire rating" with only "20 minute fire rated doors" allowed.

    Glad to see you are making *some* headway in the right direction.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Mount View Post
    I would demand that it all the floor be removed and replaced after treatment to all surrounding walls.
    I think we can all agree on that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Treatment is a wast of time and money if the infestation is extending into inaccessible areas. like under hard wood flooring or into adjacent walls.

    Fume it!!!

    Best

    Ron


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Treatment is a wast of time and money if the infestation is extending into inaccessible areas.

    Fume it!!!

    Ummmm ... Ron, I realize I've been retired as a Pest Control Operator for two years now and don't know what I used to know, but ...

    Fumigation IS a "treatment", is it not?

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    The only sure way to rid of them.

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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Not in my book.

    Jerry you may sell some one a $ 100.00 treatment on a home.
    but i bet you never sold some one a $ 100.00 fumigation on a home.

    In your book they may be the same but not im my book.

    If o told some one in Calif. that i was going to Fumigate there home and just did a squirt job the owner would not understand or be happy.

    Rick don't run with the Squirt job thing.

    Best

    Ron

    Last edited by Ron Bibler; 07-25-2008 at 09:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Before this spirals down into another firewall/separation pizzin' match, please allow an untrained person outside the pest control world to restate between the disputing parties.

    Fumigation is by definition a type of pest control treatment.
    Nobody said that a spray treatment was in any way equal to or related to a fumigation treatment.
    I think Jerry would concur that fumigation treatment would at times be the best or only treatment for a particular treatment and Jerry is only arguing the proper wording (again).
    (Sub panel, fire rated separation wall, treatment)
    Jerry has a wealth of knowledge but just like your fourth grade English teacher, he is going to insist that everyone use the proper term
    Can't we all just get along?

    Jim Luttrall
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  36. #36
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Thanks for the input Jim. But in the state of Calif if I put the word Fumigation on a Termite report and only did a Local treatment the state Structural Pest Control Board would be in my office so fast and they would not give me 2 cents for the statement that treatment and fumigation are the same thing... Not going to fly in Calif.

    Now we may say that fumigation is a treatment. But a TREATMENT IS NOT A FUMIGATION.

    Best

    Ron


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    When you fumigate a home with gas isn't there just as much gas per square in in the wood as there is in the air. Also isn't it true that if you try to walk thru a home from front to back holding your breath in a home just gassed, before you got to the back of the home you would be dead on the floor from the gas entering your body?

    Just what I thought I read in the study material. Never actually did a job before.


  38. #38
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    No Tim. the gas will not work that fast. your eyes would be on fire first form the tear gas warning agent. then you would start to get sick and all that stuff. if you stayed in the home for some time you could get sick and die. but that would take some time. remember we are only trying to kill a little termite or Beetle about a 1/8in and the amount of gas that is used is limited for the kill of a liitle bug.

    Best

    Ron

    Last edited by Ron Bibler; 07-25-2008 at 08:05 PM.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Thanks Ron. It has been a while since I took the termite test but I thought I read something somewhere to that affect. Probably some folk lour article some where. I have only done conventional treatment and pretreats for termites, no tenting.

    What about the actual penetration of the gas into the wood?

    One thing I will say that in any remodel of a home that has been tented in the near past it does appear to choke you a bit when gutting a place out. Is there a residual left behind in the wood.


  40. #40
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Tim Its a gas. once a fumigator airs out the property it is safe for reintry. there is no gas in the structure that can be detected. think of it as 2 magnets that push away from each other. thats what this gas does. it expands and expands and expands away from its self. not in the way like a bloon that gets bigger. it just keeps the same space.

    The gas will find its way into every crack, joint and hole of a structure. extract or over come the air and kill the the termites/Beetles.

    you can have a glass, fork spoon on a table fume the house and then eat and drink with glass fork and spoon. no oily film or any thing. Its a gas.

    lighter then air.

    Best

    Ron


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Thanks Ron

    What I should have said instead of residual was does the gas completely dissipate, go away, have a particular life to it, off gas so to speak over time or can the gas get trapped in wood and other materials and then slowly leach out over time.

    Sorry for the mis-wording.

    Gees, I new what I meant

    My name is Ted but thats OK I have been meaning to change it to Tim


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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Ron,

    Are they still requiring or have ever required PC control companies out there in California to have a on-site security gaurd to keep people from entering homes that have been tarped and fumigated.

    I've heard stories, if they are true or not, of the yo-yo's out there trying to commit suicide by entering these homes.

    Whats the story?

    Interested minds want to know.

    rick


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    -- the gas will not work that fast. remember we are only trying to kill a little termite or Beetle about a 1/8in and the amount of gas that is used is limited for the kill of a little bug.
    Best
    Ron
    .
    Like a Gas Chamber, ( under a tent. )

    Do they get a blind fold, menu choice for last meal, an importunity to write home?
    .
    What do you think Tim?
    .

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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Gee, I thought only I had an issue with Jerry... good to see I'm not alone...

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  45. #45
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    Default Re: Beetles in new hard wood flooring

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Ron,

    Are they still requiring or have ever required PC control companies out there in California to have a on-site security gaurd to keep people from entering homes that have been tarped and fumigated.

    I've heard stories, if they are true or not, of the yo-yo's out there trying to commit suicide by entering these homes.

    Whats the story?

    Interested minds want to know.

    rick
    Thats an option for the owner of the property. they sign a release form for personal items in the property during the fume. mots just get a drive by company to look in on things. if its a windy day the fumigator will check in on the property. looking for opening in the tarp for leaks.

    but we do get a wack job no and then looking for things to rip off. cracks heads. the fire department of on notice along with the county agg dept.

    Best

    Ron


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