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Old 04-18-2008, 06:23 AM
Michael Koser Michael Koser is offline
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Infrared Cameras
I was just wondering how many inspectors out there have invested in an “Infrared Camera.” They are anything but cheap and seem to me to go beyond typical inspection standards of practice. It comes down to that they are very expensive toys. Don’t get me wrong I love toys. I see these cameras advertised in all the tool magazines and now even see infrared camera classes. Just wondering what everybody’s thoughts are on this technology.
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:11 AM
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Scott Patterson Scott Patterson is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Koser View Post
I was just wondering how many inspectors out there have invested in an “Infrared Camera.” They are anything but cheap and seem to me to go beyond typical inspection standards of practice. It comes down to that they are very expensive toys. Don’t get me wrong I love toys. I see these cameras advertised in all the tool magazines and now even see infrared camera classes. Just wondering what everybody’s thoughts are on this technology.
I look at them like a notebook computer. 5 years ago it was difficult to find a good notebook computer for under $3,000. Now you can buy them all day for under $1,000. The IR camera is doing the same exact thing. 3 years ago you could not find one for under $10,000. Now they are down to $5,000 to $7,000 and dropping.

If I was in the market for an IR camera, and I'm not. I would head to EBay and look for one. I have observed that over the past few years many newer inspectors bought into the IR craze and those are the guys who are going out of business. Keep in mind that their equipment might be old by today's standards if they bought it a couple of years ago, but they still want to recover the money they waisted them. So you might be better off buying a new one that is still under warranty.
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:52 AM
Ron Bibler Ron Bibler is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
I got my first standard sony camera $ 750.00 bucks. 13 photos to a flopy disk that was some 8/9 years back. but that camera did get me out of a law suit! worth it ? yes. I got my first FLIR B2 INFRARED CAMERA last year From a new inspector that was getting out of the inspection service. That was a $ 12,500.00 camera new. I got it for a 3rd of that. I've been inspecting for alomst 30 years. For me They are A BIG HELP! I like what i find with IR. When i got my sony i was the only Inspector around with photos in my reports. Most of the old school inspectors were not going that way. Now 8 years latter the cost of my new sony camera is $ 90.00 And i think almost every inspector today has photos in there reports.
I do charge for the IR as an add on. My FLIR B2 camera paid for its self 4 months.

Some day i will bet almost every inspector will have one. And some wack jobs will not charge for the service and there you go. FREE is FREE.

My 2cents

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Ron
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Old 04-18-2008, 09:52 AM
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Greg D. Dames Greg D. Dames is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Scott is correct the prices do seem to be declining and you can find deals out there from folks who purchased the cameras for perhaps the wrong reason. Some of the ones on the market employ both the IR and digital camera formats so you can superimpose what the IR is picking up. My camera cost me $14,000 but I don't do the same work that you fellows do. However I will say that training is the key and suggest that you get your Level I and also take the Building Science course it will open new doors for you....Good Luck

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Old 05-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Rick Bridges Rick Bridges is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Well guys I believe that if you are in the home inspection, or building diagnostic business, you really must have an imager in today's climate. There are all kinds of reasons, not the least being possible legal ramifications for incorrect inspection results. We carry, Flir, Extech, Fluke and Palmer Wahl equipment.

Here is a link to the new Extech i5.
Extech i5 Compact Thermal Imaging Camera Flir Technology Extech i5 i-5 irc40 irc-40 irc 40

We have the very best pricing and the best service. Feel free to give me a call or email me if you need additional info.

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Old 05-20-2008, 02:18 PM
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Kevin Luce Kevin Luce is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
I've had my Fluke TIR camera for a little over a month now and it is paying off indirectly. Since there are only a few home inspectors in this area that have one and many Realtors don't know about this type of camera; I give a little 15 minute presentation, then show them some interesting things the camera can do (have a little fun with the Realtors), then answer any questions. I have gotten a few jobs from Realtors just from this presentation already (cheap advertising).

The IR camera does make looking for moisture, missing insulation, electrical problems, etc a lot easier. About a week ago, I was doing a quick scan of the basement when I found at water leak at the corner of the finished basement wall. I tested with the moisture meter to confirm and with the IR camera, I was able to include that picture in with the report. The moisture meter & IR camera showed the moisture but visually there was no evidence of a problem. After showing the client and their Realtor that area with a moisture meter and the IR picture, they had no doubts that a problem existed.

Is a Infrared camera needed to do home inspections? NO. Once you have one and start using it, you will be telling stories like I just am.

In my opinion, cost is the only thing holding home inspectors back from buying one. Once the cost drops enough ($4,000 is not bad for a tool you can write off on your taxes and maybe save you from a lawsuit), then you will see most home inspectors buying one and talking great things about it.

For me, the longer other home inspector wait to buy one, the more I can take advantage of this technology when it comes to advertising.

If you can afford it, buy one!
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:36 PM
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Kevin Luce Kevin Luce is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
I have observed that over the past few years many newer inspectors bought into the IR craze and those are the guys who are going out of business.
Do you think them buying an IR camera is the reason they went out of business? Or is it more likely they went out of business because they found that doing home inspections is harder, more time consuming, not as profitable and/or more costly to operate then expected.

Quote:
So you might be better off buying a new one that is still under warranty.
I would buy new.
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:55 PM
Ron Bibler Ron Bibler is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
[quote=Kevin Luce;44268]
Quote:

Do you think them buying an IR camera is the reason they went out of business? Or is it more likely they went out of business because they found that doing home inspections is harder, more time consuming, not as profitable and/or more costly to operate then expected.


I would buy new.

No! The ones that are out are out because of a cash flow problem. Bottom line in any type of work. No work. Im picking up more then $ 2,000.00 a month with Infrared bottom line it work for me. and as kevin stated having some fun with the realtors. Now i have had a few realtors just get flat mad like i have never saw before. just blow a gasket along with the seller of the home. the buyer and his agent were just loving what was now visible from the Infrared camera. The selling agent got in her car and by by she was gone the seller was sanding out in the back yard.

Looks like we have 2 side of a fence.


Best

Ron
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:59 PM
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Kevin Luce Kevin Luce is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
I agree that cash flow is likely the main reason why people are getting out of doing home inspections at this time. For newbies, like Scott mentioned, it maybe a combination of cash flow and some of the other items that I listed. I was told (I don't know how true the % is but I know it is a lot) that over 80% of the home inspectors in this area are part time home inspectors. The full time job to pay the bills and home inspections for extra cash or just can't afford to do home inspection full time yet. There are two guys that work for this one home inspection company that only do home inspections on weekends.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:25 PM
Tony Mount Tony Mount is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
First and for most home inspections are visual and not technically exhaustive. When you bring in technical equipment to find problems, that places you under a whole different inspection realm. I believe if you find a problem with something other than visual and there develops other technical problems in any other area such as low freon on the A/C unit, you could be sued for not being technically exhaustive in all areas of your inspection. If you want to use IR cameras, moisture meters, gas detectors, a/c gauges, duct cameras and the like you should become a technical inspector and leave the visual home inspector trade. I believe if someone used a IR camera on my house and found areas that were not insulated and I lost the sale I could own that home inspectors company, simply because efficiency's are not apart of the home inspection process. Second if you say that your IR camera found moisture on some part of my house that showed no signs of moisture without tearing out something. The buyer then insisted that the sheet rock be removed and I did it and found nothing once the damage was done and they still did not buy my house, I will own your company. Taking home inspections to a new level, that is way above the norm or SOP is not in any ones best interest. That's my rant, I'm greased and ready. Tony M.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:36 PM
Ron Bibler Ron Bibler is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
I understand your points tony. this is going to be one big issue over the next 5 years so. if you are correct about owning another inspectors company you may want to start buying and selling home. may make a few extra bucks that way. Its going to get sticky any way you look at IR.

Best

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Old 05-21-2008, 06:40 PM
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Rick Hurst Rick Hurst is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Tony,

I agree with most of your statement except the part of the insulation being found.

and owning someone's company for finding it.

I do agree with you that if someone called something out and found latter that it was not there such as a moisture problem, mold or something like that I could understand someone taking legal steps if they lost the sale.

The only thing I personally see an issue with these cameras is the lack of experience one may have before they get out there in the field and start calling out things.

Greased and ready you say. Good lord man, what have you got planned this evening? LOL

rick
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Old 05-21-2008, 07:47 PM
Jerry Peck Jerry Peck is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Rick,

The only way Tony, or any other home inspector for that matter, can do a purely "visual" inspection is to *take no tools* with him during the inspection.

The home inspector would need to walk in, hands in pockets, and "*LOOK* around". That's it, nothing more.

Beyond that, the home inspector begins to get "intrusive" (a word some like to use), and from that point on to carrying the greatest and best tools becomes a personal decision that the individual home inspector must make in defining "visual".

Here is a challenge for all home inspectors on this board: define what you consider to be your "visual" inspection. What will you use and still fall in your definition of "visual" and what will you not use because you would fall outside your definition of "visual".

Anyone willing to contribute to the definition of "visual"?
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:56 AM
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Kevin Luce Kevin Luce is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Visual = able to be seen. That's as far as I want to go.

Like Jerry wrote, hands in the pocket unless you are taking off a cover to something like an electrical box.

Why can't an infrared camera help with a "Visual" inspection without taking it beyond the norm? I turn it on, I point it in a direction and I visually look at the information on the screen just like you would visually look at the information on the wall with your own eyes. How much more visual is that?

When it comes to training (I like using the word education and this definition "The knowledge or skill obtained or developed by a learning process." which can be formal or informal), there will always be a learning curve. There will always be people saying that more education is needed.

I asked these questions which helped me determine my liability for using the camera.

*Am I experienced in using the IR camera at this time? NO
*Do I use the camera only to determine if a problem exist? NO
*Can I educate myself when problems are seen? Yes (Example: Clearly see moisture running down a pipe and then check with the IR Camera to see what it looks like.)
*Is formal training available and is it needed? Yes
*Does I have to rely only on the camera to determine if a problem exist? NO
*Can I charge extra for using an IR camera? Not at this time

Change is always occurring and this includes the way home inspections are done. Look how much change has occurred from 30 years ago when it comes to doing home inspection (a lot more training available, the opportunity to do enough home inspections to support a family, report writing has become more complexed, expectations from the home inspectors are much higher, etc.)

The 45 minute inspection with writing a few problems on a blank piece of paper is over.
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:27 PM
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John McKenna John McKenna is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Consumer's Guide to Infrared Thermography - NACHI.TV Episode 33

IR is coming to a home near you.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:50 PM
Brandon Chew Brandon Chew is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
Rick,

The only way Tony, or any other home inspector for that matter, can do a purely "visual" inspection is to *take no tools* with him during the inspection.

The home inspector would need to walk in, hands in pockets, and "*LOOK* around". That's it, nothing more.

Beyond that, the home inspector begins to get "intrusive" (a word some like to use), and from that point on to carrying the greatest and best tools becomes a personal decision that the individual home inspector must make in defining "visual".

Here is a challenge for all home inspectors on this board: define what you consider to be your "visual" inspection. What will you use and still fall in your definition of "visual" and what will you not use because you would fall outside your definition of "visual".

Anyone willing to contribute to the definition of "visual"?
Let's not make up fancy definitions of "visual" to suit ourselves. The term "visual inspection" in plain English (the language our clients use and understand) simply means to examine something closely using your eyes. Here are some of my thoughts on this subject that I posted on The Inspector's Journal forum a couple of months ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Chew @ TIJ
We (home inspectors) need to stop calling what we do a "visual" inspection. It may have been a visual inspection at one time, but the standard of care that is routinely set by many inspectors goes beyond being a visual inspection.

I'll use the moisture meter as an example since we are all familiar with its use. If I see something that looks like a water stain or some other sign of a current or past moisture problem, or even a bad flashing job on a roof, and then I use the moisture meter as a tool to provide more information to me about the thing that I observed, then I think we are still in the realm of doing a visual inspection. But if I start routinely scanning the walls below windows or the floor around toilets in the bathroom with my moisture meter, because this is where I find a lot of leaks at houses I inspect and not because I observed something at this house that lead me to believe there may be moisture present in these locations at this home, then I'm no longer doing a visual inspection.

Here's another example. When I open up an electrical panel and report my findings, I'm doing a visual inspection. When I stick a three light tester into a receptacle and report my findings, I'm not doing a visual inspection on this portion of the electrical system. If, instead of using the tester, I remove the cover plate and report on how the receptacle is wired, I'm doing a visual inspection. In this case, the cost of the tool is cheap and it speeds up my inspection process, because I can use the tester to decide which cover plates I want to pull for a visual inspection, instead of pulling every one of them or relying on a "representative sample".
The point I was trying to make up above is that I think you can use tools and still call it a visual inspection if you are only using those tools to gather more information about conditions that you originally observed with your eyes. Once you use the tools as the primary or initial inspection device (instead of your eyesight), it's no longer a visual inspection. I'm trying to be generous and stretch "visual inspection" as far as I can. I could easily be convinced that any use of a tool that doesn't involve eyesight, like a moisture meter, no longer qualifies as a visual inspection. Also, once you use senses other than your eyes ... touch, smell, sound ... it's no longer a visual inspection.

If it's not a visual inspection, then what is it? I continued the discussion on this subject in another post at TIJ:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Chew @ TIJ
I'm leaning toward noninvasive or nondestructive. Noninvasive has a good parallel to the medical field, and I think more and more people are becoming familiar with that term and have an intuitive grasp of what it means -- to examine without breaking the skin or penetrating a body cavity. Nondestructive is similar but not quite the same, and comes from the engineering world.

When you go to the doctor, the doctor wants to learn as much as possible about you without causing damage to your body. The doctor runs you through a battery of noninvasive tests and examinations: looks you over, pokes and probes, measures your temperature and weight, listens to your heart and breathing, measures your pulse and blood pressure, looks in your ears and throat, checks your vision, tests your reflexes, etc. Beyond that there are a whole host of noninvasive diagnostic tools available for use: x-ray, ECG/EKG, MRI, radiology, ultrasound, and yes, infrared imaging. The doctor might order some minimally invasive tests such as drawing blood, a biopsy, or even a colonoscopy -- although those who have had that last one might disagree that it is "minimally invasive"! Thankfully, technology has pushed "let's grab the scalpel and see what's going on in there" way down the list!

Over in the engineering world, many of those same techniques and technologies are being used on physical objects in a process called NDE or nondestructive evaluation. NDE refers to methods used to examine and evaluate an object, material or system without impairing its future usefulness. A small amount of damage is permissible as long as the usefulness is maintained.

A house is a bunch of objects and materials that are assembled into various systems. I think nondestructive is better than noninvasive as a description of the kind of inspection that HIs do. It's that "examination without impairing future usefulness" part that is the key. Using a pin-type moisture meter, probing for wood damage, or dismantling equipment in order to get a better look are all invasive methods but they are still considered nondestructive techniques.

When I am working to define and shape the client's expectations of the inspection, I don't say "I'm going to do a limited visual inspection of the readily accessible areas of the home". I say "I'm going to spend several hours here trying to find out everything I can about the condition of this home without damaging it." Then I'll mention some of the things that might limit my inspection (e.g., not visible, not accessible, not safe).
IMO, the appropriate technical term for what we do is a nondestructive inspection. Visual is a misnomer. Noninvasive is closer to what we do but still not accurate. Some of our tools and techniques involve poking, probing, and minor disassembly, which are invasive techniques, but I think everything we do is with the objective of it being nondestructive.
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Old 05-23-2008, 04:31 AM
Patrick McCaffery Patrick McCaffery is offline
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Re: Infrared Cameras
Just a few comments around infared cameras. I was a diagnostic technician for a large manufacturing company. In that capacity I did vibration analysis of rotating equipment, infared thermography on electrical equipment and ultrasound on various equipment. These technologies are considered no-evasive and in most cases the equipment does not have to be shut down for inspection.
I do not use Infrared cameras in my Home Inspection business, because I am still building my business and cannot afford the cost of even the most inexpensive cameras.
I believe an infared camera would be a good tool, if you see a moisture stain and would like to determine if it is a past stain or a current problem. Another opportunity is the inspection of an electrical panel. Loose wires or other problems would show up during the investigation. With proper training roof inspections would also be another area of additional business. However, when I received the training, most roof inspections were conducted at night when the temperature cooled down and the moisture could be spotted.
I currently use my infared thermometer for investigating water spots and electrical panels.
I agree that as the price of these cameras come down, they will become another tool for the property inspector.
And yes I was taught that a good inspector only needs a piece of paper, pencil and a flashlight for doing inspections.
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