I was scheduled to do an inspection this afternoon, The buyer called me and said the VA mortgage appraiser had called for (1) a Licensened Roofer to inspect the roof, and (2) for a Licensened HVAC repairman to inspect the HVAC. In Oklahoma there is no such thing as a Licensened Roofer, The village idiot can grab a ladder and a hammer and be in the roofing business. The lady at the local bank said they wanted someone who did roofing full time and had an ad in the phone book. The HVAC inspection they want a repairman to tell them the furnace and AC works.

I know I am not the first to run into this situation and would like to be able to inspect these VA houses. I feel (I Know) I give a better and more comprehensive inspection than just a roofer and a HVAC guy.

Comments, Ideas

Thanks I needed to vent a little

Willie

Correct me if I am wrong, but you OK guys are required to be licensed now, right?
If so, I would reply to the person at the bank or where ever, that although the state does not license roofers, they do license inspectors. Here is my license number and qualifications, you can see my ad on page xxx of the local phone book. Any other questions?
I will be happy to call out any other licensed trade person for the specialized inspection, but it will be more costly for my client.
BTW, the inspection is for the client, not the bank or the VA... I recommend NEVER sharing the inspection report with the bank if possible. Talk about screwing up your client, banks are only there to protect their interest and to make money.

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

While on this subject, today I had a client who informed me that a HVAC contractor would be out at the home while we were there.

The guy shows up, walked into the garage straight to the attic ladder and up to the attic he went.

5 minutes later he's down and says everything looks great.

I asked him exactly what he had done. He told me he stabbed the return air vent and the supply with the typical temperature probes we all probably have in the tool bag.

Walked around to the condensing unit, did a visual on it in 3 minutes and wrote out an invoice for 125. stating the cooling was performing as intended.
Not (1) gauge was put on to check anything.

I asked him about the refrigerant line insulation missing at the attic line, the rusted out drain pan, and openings around the plenum.

He said and I quote, "I don't want to piss off the Realtor on this one, because we make a sh*&load off repairs from this agent."

Even the HVAC biz I see now is corrupted of looking out for the agents best interest instead of the client.

Go figure.

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Rick Hurst
Home Works Inspection Co.
5 out of 4 people have trouble with fractions

Did you see the 60 minutes story Sunday about the on-line discount realtors? It pointed out the turf war going on to try and shut down anybody that charges less than 6%. I got notice from NAR (I get the notices since I have the Supra key) telling the realtors an their friends to write CBS to voice their displeasure with the way the story was presented without NAR spokesman... Said they had been working closely with CBS for months to get their side of the story out. They were not happy!

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

Yeah... I have a broker Supra Key and I get all the same crap via email. Some of it is down right funny.

'CALL TO ARMS!!' type stuff.

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"If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?"
Richard Rushing, HCRI
Duncanville, Tx.

Hello Willie, I had basically the same thing happen to me here in Ponca City, OK. A young woman called me here recently and wanted to know if I could do a structural inspection. I said but it would be better to get a complete home inspection. She said she already hired a plumber and an electrician and they are scheduled to come out Monday. I said what about your roof; she said the roof is new. I said well we had a major hail storm in this area about two month ago, when was the roof replaced? She said I don’t know. I could not get her to admit she needs a roof inspection as well as many other things. I did not want to loose the job so I said it is up to you if you want me just to do the structural then I will do that. She said she had to talk to her husband. She called back and hired me over the phone. I then left the house to see my mechanic to look at my AC on my car. Her lawyer called while I was driving and started interrogating me over the phone. He wanted to know if I was licensed and bonded, how much experience blah blah blah. I finally got to my parking area and explained yes I am licensed, have insurance and met all requirements for the state of Oklahoma but am not bonded. He wanted to know if I had a problem with a piece meal inspection. I said I tried to explain to the lady that many things can fall through the gaps with just hiring a few contractors.....he said like what?!!! He kind of caught me off guard, and my mechanic was staring at me....I said well, the roof, the grading and drainage, appliances, etc. He said he has bought two homes and used separate contractors and hasn’t had any problems! He did not sound very friendly! He said he would inform his client (the lady) I said ok. Ok I get back home and I call NACHI legal department and they told me that was a red flag. I then called this lady back and told here that it kind of concerned me that her lawyer would call me like that. She didn’t say much then said she had to get back to work. Later on that evening she called and said she would no longer need my services......W@OW!

I was getting a little long winded in the last post so thought I would break it up.
Ok I was upset that this woman called me, finally hired me, gave me hell with her lawyer then fired me! So I went to the NACHI forum and posted my complaint there to see if other inspectors have had this happen to them before.
We had a pretty good conversation going about the pros and cons of other contractors doing inspections. Oh yes and I did say that this woman would have gaps in her inspection. Guess what? Another local inspector that I know and do not respect because he kisses A____ with Realtors dared to jump on me and said he FILLED MY GAP WITH THIS WOMAN!!! Other words I gathered he was saying he was a better man or inspector than me! and did the job that I failed to do grrrr! So I jumped back on him then he started in saying that I was a whiner, did not know how to market and do not go on roofs or crawlspaces. I thought that was being unethical, since this man has been know to tell lies about me and stole a potential client from me years ago. I highly suspect he told this woman more lies just to get the job but cannot prove it. I have had a few clients tell me I do a better job than him anyway, some have hired him in the past. So bottom line we not only have to watch out for crooked Realtors but even our own people can be traitors! We also need to somehow educate the public that hiring a butch of contractors is not the way to go in a home inspection. People do not go to a hand and foot doctor for a physical do they?

Jim you are right Home inspectors in Oklahoma do have to be licensened or have a higher license: electrician or Structural Engineer or what ever. The roofers do not have to be licensened and I do not think there are any restrictions on them.

Larry, some times it is better not to get the job, especially if the potential customer has her lawyer call you before hand. I hate to lose jobs but thank the Lord because he protects me.

Larry I lived in Ponca City for several years in the 90's and know some of the realtors and most of the old mechanics around. My question is do you have buffalo gnats the size of house flies this year since there has been a little more rain.

Willie

Sounds like the buyers were a bit uneducated. The lawyer as well. A good rebuttal question to the lawyer might have been "do you have a problem with peace-meal case work?" I might have suggested that he was creating an opening for a malpractice lawsuit against him, due to his failure to properly protect his client. I might have asked him point-blank on the telephone if there were any conflicts of interest between himself and the contractors hired to "inspect" various systems. After all, he did say that was exactly how he had worked his "inspections" in his own deals, right? Any chance these guys were also clients of his? I might have left him with the idea that there was a strong smell of collusion, and that I would be backing out of the deal. I probably would have informed my client of that, just before backing out. But that would be me, and I don't recommend folks imitate what I might do, unless they have a lot of fortitude, and have at least once told a judge to shut up, and had gotten away with it, because I was right.

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Randy Aldering, RHI CHI
Housesmithe Home Inspection
www.housesmithe.com

Thanks guys, yeah I am now glad I did not get that job I dont think it would be worth it. It bothers me more that this other inspector took the job and he threw it in my face in the NACHI board. I have enough trouble with Realtors I sure dont need problems with inspectors too. All I want to do is to do my job and do it well for my clients. But it is not a perfect world is it.

Willie,

I can't count the cancelled Inspections I have had, not to mention the bogus wild goose chases !
I have encountered clients that weren't even pre-qualified to make a purchase. Then been whined to by Seller after they made repairs as per the report.

I have been hired by the buyer and been on a HI at the same time as a competitive HI'r that was hired by the buyers agent ??!!

I have had many "party" HI's (Sellers, Their agent, Buyers, Their agent, Pest inspector, Appraiser, My Trainee and Myself) where you trip over everyone and have to keep a really close eye on your tools.

The HI's I avoid are;
Those that are persistent in trying to negotiate a discount,
Those that ask for my E&O policy # and Provider,
Those from Realtors that ask me to "go easy"

Intuition is a built in sense aka: gut feeling
Pay attention to it !

~Wen~

Hey Wen......
Then there's my favorite.
Paranoia is nothing more than a well honed sense of self preservation.

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Critical Home Inspection Services
www.Home2Spec.com

Willie, I know losing an inspection can be frustrating especially at the last minute. I suggest you begin marketing yourself to the lenders that loan on VA homes and also do a presentation to the local appraisers that appraise VA homes for this lender. I suggest you discuss your your services and qualifications. Unlike a typical home inspection, a home that has a VA loan is a bit different and if the appraiser predicates the loan e.g. requires additional inspections, the lender must order the inspections and can choose who they wish.

Also I disagree with Jim's statement about working for the buyer. In this case you are working indirectly for the VA through the lender NOT the buyer. Also you might report the same condition differently depending upon who you are working for. For example, during a normal home inspection you might report that a home has corrosion on a kitchen drain line and repair should be considered. In a VA loan situation, as an indirect representative for VA you have the authority to require the repairs be made and they must be done for the loan to go forward. Once the repairs you specify are completed you will often be asked to go back out to the house to re-inspect the repairs by the lender if they feel it's necessary. This typically happens when a handyman or homeowner have mad the repair. This process is also very similar to the HUD 203B loan program. A big difference betweent the HUD 203B program and the VA program is that the home buyer (veteran) can not make the repairs. They must be made by the home seller or their contractor.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

Don

Therein lies a large problem with real estate sales in some states.

I don't know about your state, but in Florida, the homeowner or handyman *ARE NOT ALLOWED* to make repairs.

I will clarify that: *THE HOME OWNER* is not allowed to make repairs; *THE HANDYMAN* must be licensed as a handyman (if their city/county has such a license, otherwise they are not properly licensed to make repairs either) and then are only allowed to make minor non-structural, non-electrical, non-HVAC, non-roofing, non-plumbing, non-whateverislicensed types or repairs.

Let's see, that would be ... painting and caulking!

In Florida, a homeowner is allowed to do almost anything to their own home (with appropriate permits and inspections, of course) *UNLESS* ... (drum roll) ... the home is offered for sale or lease *WITHIN ONE YEAR* of making those repairs, in which case they are now operating as "unlicensed contractors" and can be so charged (which comes with up to a $5,000 fine and up to one year in jail, which also applies to anyone aiding and abetting that action, i.e., real estate agents).

You can do what you want to *YOUR* home, but if you offer it for sale or lease, the intent is that you are a contractor doing it for the purchaser/tenant ... not yourself.

Check you your state's contractor licensing law and see what it covers.

Any repair made by other than an appropriately licensed contractor is effectively 'not made' and cannot be counted toward the contractual obligation of the seller toward fulfilling their contract with the buyer.

__________________
Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
EastWestData (www.EastWestData.com )

Willie,
Never let another Inspector get to you. Look at it this way. He was bragging about doing something you turned down. Is he even worthy of the time you spent pissed off!

Larry,
The three or four times that a prospective Client has had a lawyer call me before a job, I have instructed the attorney to call his Client and cancel the job. I keep it short. If he has time to call me on behalf of his "adult" client, then he his hungry. I have no intention of joining the food chain. Please call my competitors.

I willingly do jobs for lawyers as my Clients and for lawyers who represent Trusts, but when one calls me on behalf of a Client, I decline. It's a personal red flag moment.

Regarding bringing in th specialists, knock yourself out. I'm still doing my complete inspection and I'm still charging the full boogie. It's my time, as well as my expertise they're buying. If I'm there doing a piece meal job, I for less money I can't be somewhere else doing a real inspection for more money. It's that simple.

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The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
- Paul Fix

Good points Thom.

Don, I respect your disagreement with me, but "I" do NOT work for the VA or lender unless they hire me. I work for the person who hired me ONLY and have doubts about the propriety of anyone who tries to split their allegiance. While the VA, FHA, etc. may work to protect the borrowers interest while protecting the equity of the loan, I have found most lenders care about the property value, not the borrowers.
I feel I have a responsibility to honestly protect the interest of my client only, not the lender, not the realtor, not the seller, not to be "fair to the house".
Jim

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Jim Luttrall
Mr. Inspector.net, Inc.
Allen, Texas 75002

Jim,

The HUD / VA lender was wrong. Several years ago ASHI worked out some language for the HUD / VA handbook that specifially allows home inspectors to do such inspections. I used to have the paragraph number and such, but I haven't needed it for many years.

This was well in excess of 10 years ago this occurred.

That's correct, Bruce. It's mortgagee letter 88-5. You can find the letter at the link

Error[no]&op1=AND&l=100&SECT1=TXT_HITS&SECT5=MLET&u=./hudclips.cgi&p=1&r=1&f=G

The lender, however, can choose who they want to use and as I understand it, it is within their right to decide who they want to use. Again I suggest taking a copy of the mortgagee letter to the head of underwriting for the lender and letting them know that in HUD's view, you are qualified.

And, lastly to clarify, I inspect homes for clients and have a contractual obligation to represent the home's condition accurately. So, if I'm working with a home buyer, for example, I'm representing the buyer, my cleint. I have, however, often been contacted by the lender to inspect predications from an appraiser for the 203B loan and never inspected the home for the buyer. If inspecting the home for the buyer and they are getting an FHA loan, you inspect it for the buyer's benefit, as obilgated, BUT you can also provide the lender copies of components that have been predicated provided the buyer gives you permission to do so. Buyers generally appreciate the "added value" this provides them. The preidicated components that do not meet current HUD requirements, typically code items for that municipality, must be repaired or the loan will not go through. The only time I've seen HUD allow a homeowner to make their own repairs was when they were qualifed, e.g. contractor, electrician, etc. and then the lender required me to go back and inspect their work.

There are two distinct hats required when doing this type of inspection. Home Inspector for the buyer (if you're hired to inspect the home) and another hat that represent's HUD's interests. While it might appear to be different, they are not at odds with one another.

Don Norman