Flir E4

[Gordon Lee]

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Dose any one has used it? Dose it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

[Marc M]

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Dose any one has used it? Dose it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

You want to see water moving?

[Jerry Peck]

I think he is referring to in-slab heating and he wants to be able to see the heat pattern of the piping.

[Jim Robinson]

Not familiar with the E4, but my old B Cam picks it up very easily, so I would think that camera would as well.

[Lon Henderson]

An IR camera will show radiant floor heating coils, pipes, etc very well. Sure beats crawling on the floor.

[kurt jensen]

I got an E5 from Flir direct. It picks up a lot of stuff... look at flir direct b/c you get freebies with the purchase.. I got a $200 moisture meter w/ mine... I do not have any stake in flir direct, just a happy customer.

[Marc M]

One of these is electric in floor and the other is hydro. Both with flir

[Lon Henderson]

One of these is electric in floor and the other is hydro. Both with flir
Looks like the guy laying out the hydro lines was in a hurry to finish on a Friday evening.

[Milton Matter]

Under good circumstances the FLIR E4 should easily see the hydronic lines. This assumes they are not too deep in the concrete, and that the heat has not been on for a long time. If the slab has been heating for awhile the E4 will have more trouble differentiating exactly where the lines are since the concrete will be more evenly warm. Here's a link to a blog post I wrote for Ivy Tools comparing the images of the E4 E5 E6 and E8 (http://blog.ivytools.com/2014/03/12/comparing-flir-e4e5e6e8-infrared-cameras-which-one-do-i-need/). You can see that the E4 has considerably less resolution, but since you know where to look and can control the conditions, the E4 can get the job done in this situation.

[Scott Patterson]

Right now I would caution anyone about buying and using any IR during a home inspection as long as we have the patent trolls lurking in the shadows. The manufacturers don't care, but they are not the ones who will have to defend themselves.

[Jerry Peck]

Right now I would caution anyone about buying and using any IR during a home inspection as long as we have the patent trolls lurking in the shadows. The manufacturers don't care, but they are not the ones who will have to defend themselves.

Scott,

Do you know when the patent was issued?

I ask because I suspect that my use of the IR camera during inspections predates their patent, in which case the use of IR in inspections was common knowledge and common knowledge is not allowed to be patented. Also, it was part of my promoting and advertising (word-of-mouth advertising) and business model ... I give anyone and everyone permission to keep my business model and promoting and advertising methods going for inspections. :cool:

I would be willing to testify against those patent trolls if the dates worked out as I suspect the dates would.

Of course, though, that would still require an attorney to crush the patent trolls once and for all.

[Lon Henderson]

Right now I would caution anyone about buying and using any IR during a home inspection as long as we have the patent trolls lurking in the shadows. The manufacturers don't care, but they are not the ones who will have to defend themselves.

I was completely unaware of this.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/building-science/patent-troll-wins-first-case-over-use-infrared-cameras

Commentary in the article speculates that Nick Gromicko's actions may make this worse.

And more.......
Patent Lawsuit Threatens the use of Infrared Cameras for Home Inspectors | The Home Inspector | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/local/yourvoices/224379501.html)

And for anyone's reading enjoyment, the actual lawsuit.

http://optimalbuilding.com/files/HomeSafe-Inspection-v-Assured-Home-Inspection.pdf

[Tim Nixon]

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Dose any one has used it? Dose it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.

The E4 will work, but it is so low rez that you will have to walk all of the floor for a closer look = more time. Seeing the individual coils gets obscured by carpeting, furniture and if the concrete temp has stabilized to the same temp as the cooled water in the coils, it becomes one big blur. It's the blur that shows a leak BTW. Ideally, turn on the heat first in a cold (low 60's) house and wait a few hours or at the end of inspection to pull out the IR camera.

[Scott Patterson]

Scott,

Do you know when the patent was issued?

I ask because I suspect that my use of the IR camera during inspections predates their patent, in which case the use of IR in inspections was common knowledge and common knowledge is not allowed to be patented. Also, it was part of my promoting and advertising (word-of-mouth advertising) and business model ... I give anyone and everyone permission to keep my business model and promoting and advertising methods going for inspections. :cool:

I would be willing to testify against those patent trolls if the dates worked out as I suspect the dates would.

Of course, though, that would still require an attorney to crush the patent trolls once and for all.

Jerry, I don't have the exact date but it was back around 2002 if I'm not mistaken. They have also subsequent additions for a total of around 5-6 patents that can impact home inspectors and just about anyone using an IR camera on a residential structure regardless of what they are doing.

This is a breakdown of what is being faced:

Patent No. 7,369,955 - Residential Indoor Environmental Quality Inspection Method: This patent covers the usage of an infrared camera to locate any thermal anomaly - including but not limited to an uncontrolled or hidden water intrusion - in conjunction with obtaining data relating to indoor air quality, including visual confirmation of mold, collection of mold samples, measurement of relative humidity, installation of a constant air/gas monitor system and/or other measurements including air pressure measurements. A thermal anomaly is an unexplained difference in temperature from one area of a house to another, often indicating a problem that can't be detected by ordinary means. Thermal anomalies signify a problem with faulty wiring, hidden moisture, missing insulation, heat/energy loss, termite infestations and more.

Patent No. 7,445,377 - Non-Destructive Residential Inspection Method and Apparatus: This patent covers HomeSafe's method for creating a "thermal window," that is, preparing a house for an IR inspection by creating a temperature differential between the inside and the outside of the house, followed by obtaining temperature profiles of the house's interior and exterior components. These temperature profiles are then analyzed to uncover thermal anomalies indicating problems such as moisture intrusion or electrical issues. This method helps to create more optimal conditions for efficient usage of IR and better interpretation of IR data in the inspection process.

Patent No. 7,385,483 - Infrared/Acoustic Method to Detect Termite Infestations in a Structure: This patent covers HomeSafe's four-step procedure for uncovering termite activity in a building, including: 1) a traditional visual inspection; 2) infrared detection of hidden moisture that may indicate the presence of termites; 3) usage of a moisture meter to confirm the presence of moisture in the "suspicious" area identified by IR; and 4) usage of HomeSafe's pattern recognition software to analyze and confirm termite signals on the spot.

Patent No. 7,434,990 - Additional Methods to Detect Termite Infestation in a Structure: This patent covers the use of infrared scanning to detect moisture associated with termite infestations followed by other methods, i.e., a microwave motion detector, gas detector or termite-sniffing dogs, to confirm the presence of termites.

Patent No. 7,271,706 - Termite Acoustic Detection Device: The patent covers HomeSafe's acoustic termite detection device which utilizes powerful acoustic (listening) sensors to literally hear termite sounds that are beyond the range of human hearing. Paired with IR scanning to find hidden moisture associated with termite infestations, the acoustic device pinpoints the exact location of a termite nest behind walls rapidly, accurately and non-destructively.

Patent No. 7,429,928 - Method to Prevent Termite Infestations by Modifying Termite Behavior: This patent covers HomeSafe's method to prevent termite infestations in a house by generating very low-amplitude acoustical vibrations within the house's interior walls. These vibrations, which are inaudible to the human ear, disturb and repel termites and them out of the house. The specific vibrations have a custom-selected frequency and amplitude experimentally proven to be highly effective at modifying termite behavior.



Additional Patent Applications Currently Under Review:

11/158,109 EIFS and Moisture Inspection with Infrared
12/194,977 Infrared, Moisture and Mold Sampling
12/234,958 Identifying Structural Defects and Infrared
12/209,590 Infrared, Temperature Profile Databases and Exhaust Blowers
11/893,240 Application Dispatched from Pre-Examination -Not Yet Docketed

To learn more about our patents, simply visit the USPTO’s Web site and perform a search at US Patent Full-Text Database Number Search (http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm).

[John Kogel]

I am a new home inspector, planning to buy a Flir E4 Camera. Does it pick up the floor heating flow? Thanks.


One of these is electric in floor and the other is hydro. Both with flir


Looks like the guy laying out the hydro lines was in a hurry to finish on a Friday evening.I had to read that three times to get it. We "turn on the hydro" with an electrical breaker switch here. Our electrical power is supplied by hydroelectric dams by the BCHydro company.

Yes the IR image shows exactly where the water pipes ended up after they poured the concrete. Very enlightening.


:D

[Jerry Peck]

Patent No. 7,369,955

Patent US7369955 - Method for residential indoor environmental quality inspection and monitoring - Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents/US7369955)


Publication number
US7369955 B2


Publication type
Grant


Application number
US 11/360,274


Publication date
May 6, 2008


Filing date
Feb 23, 2006


Priority date
Feb 23, 2006


Fee status
Paid




Patent No. 7,445,377



Publication number
US7445377 B2


Publication type
Grant


Application number
US 10/708,571


Publication date
Nov 4, 2008


Filing date
Mar 11, 2004


Priority date
Mar 12, 2003


Fee status
Paid




Patent No. 7,385,483



Publication number
US7385483 B2


Publication type
Grant


Application number
US 11/641,498


Publication date
10 Jun 2008


Filing date
19 Dec 2006


Priority date
9 Oct 2002


Fee status
Paid




Patent No. 7,434,990



Publication number
US7434990 B2


Publication type
Grant


Application number
US 10/711,248


Publication date
Oct 14, 2008


Filing date
Sep 3, 2004


Priority date
Oct 9, 2002


Fee status
Paid




Patent No. 7,271,706



Publication number
US7271706 B2


Publication type
Grant


Application number
US 10/680,377


Publication date
Sep 18, 2007


Filing date
Oct 7, 2003


Priority date
Oct 9, 2002


Fee status
Paid




Patent No. 7,429,928



Publication number
US7429928 B2


Publication type
Grant


Application number
US 11/904,093


Publication date
Sep 30, 2008


Filing date
Sep 26, 2007


Priority date
Oct 9, 2002


Fee status
Paid


Below is an image I took in January, 2005:

[Jerry Peck]

Tying this thread to the other thread with the same topic in it:
- http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/thermal-imaging-infrared-ir/39959-caution-if-you-going-buy-doing-infrared-work-during-home-inspection.html#post242990

[Marc M]

So you guys still doing IR?

[John Kogel]

So you guys still doing IR?
Under the overcoat, like a dirty old man.
Not. ;)
I'm Canadian. Safe from the sharks,for now.

[Marc M]

Under the overcoat, like a dirty old man.
Not. ;)
I'm Canadian. Safe from the sharks,for now.

So these guys still pursuing lawsuits? i live in CA so you'd think i'd be used to this by now..:rolleyes:

[Scott Patterson]

So these guys still pursuing lawsuits? i live in CA so you'd think i'd be used to this by now..:rolleyes:

Looks like they are priming their pens based on the letter that was sent to thousands of inspectors across the country. All I can say is they appear to have a renewed vigor after the involvement of the owner of a large home inspector organization.