Thread: Flashing between hardi siding and brick?

We're building a house down here in Georgia and the siding installer didn't put flashing between the brick wall (3 ft tall) and hardi siding band above. All the other houses have that flashing but he said they didn't need it because the drip edge on the top of the band will prevent water from getting in the brick wall cavity.

Should I be concerned?

These are pictures of the home we're building with the drip edge above the trim band but no flashing between the trim band and the brick:




These are pictures of a home in our area that did include the drip edge above the trim band and the flashing between the band and the brick wall:




I read about IRC 703.8 and UBC 1402.2/1405.3 in other posts here. Would the construction of our brick/siding pass that code?

Thanks for any advice... Jay

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It is almost impossible to diagnose something like you are asking without seeing the entire home in person. I can see a couple other items that might be questionable in the pictures. I would highly recommend that you should hire an inspector that belongs to Georgia Association of Home Inspectors. Most of their members have some type of code certification as part of their membership requirements.

Based on the picture, I would say that this is a nice home. It would well worth the investment of $400 to $600 or whatever to have it inspected by a professional inspector.

Scott,

Thanks for the quick reply. It's kind of a sticky situation as builder is a good friend. I'm just wondering if this is worth digging my heels in over. I agree and don't care about the money... any advice you could offer would be appreciated.

I've read the following sections of UBC that seem to indicate a need for flashing between the brick and hardi siding trim band:

Uniform Building Code Section 1402.2 "Exterior openings exposed to the weather shall be flashed in such a manner as to make them weather proof."

Uniform Building Code Section 1405.3 Flashing.“Flashing shall be installed in such a manner so as to prevent moisture from entering the wall or to redirect it to the exterior. Flashing shall be installed at the perimeters of exterior door and window assemblies, penetrations and terminations of exterior wall assemblies, exterior wall intersections with roofs, chimneys, porches, decks, balconies and similar locations where moisture could enter the wall. Flashing with projecting flanges shall be installed on both sides and the ends of copings, under sills and continuously above projecting wood trim.”

I also read that IRC 703.8 requires flashing wherever 2 dissimilar siding materials meet.

Wouldn't the above code require flashing between the brick and the hardi siding trim (or am I misinterpreting)?

Thanks,

Jay

Maintain a 1/4” clearance
between the bottom of
James Hardie products
and horizontal flashing.
Do not caulk gap.

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/insta...lank-block.pdf

Check out figure 7 - not exactly the situation you have, but pretty close.

Jim,

I was thinking that the following "general requirement" would apply here:

"A water-resistive barrier is required in accordance with local building code requirements. The water-resistive barrier must be appropriately
installed with penetration and junction flashings in accordance with local building code requirements. Flashing is required over horizontal
protruding and exposed trim. James Hardie will assume no responsibility for water infiltration."

from http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/insta...mxld_south.pdf

Am I reading this correctly?

Thanks,

Jay

Well, that kind of throws it back to the local building code and the horizontal flashing they refer to is to protect the Hardi product, not the brick wall under it. Good detailing requirements, but not applicable here according to my understanding.

Would that be the UBC/IRC code? Back to my original question, doesn't that code require flashing between dissimilar siding materials, at breaches of the wall system, protrusions, etc?

Thanks,

Jay

Hard to say if Hardie would be a dissimilar material. It is cement based. Remember that the manufacturer's installation instructions take precedence over code. I think that Jim is correct and Hardie should be contacted for specifics.

I've tried contacting them and I'm waiting for a reply. I'm meeting the siding guy tomorrow and I was hoping it would be more cut and dry (either it's ok or I need flashing).

I read posts like these and thought it would be a simple issue:

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...d-install.html
The Inspector's Journal Forums - Hardi Plank/ Panel installation requirements

Thanks,

Jay

Seems to me that if the other homes in the neighborhood are flashed, then this one should be as well. Unfortunately, not everything is cut and dried. And, I don't know all of the manufacturers' installation instructions.

If it is Hardie, it isn't likely to rot, if that is your concern.

I guess my concern is more about the interaction between the brick wall and the hardy wall.

UBC 1405.3 mentions "Flashing shall be installed at the .. penetrations and terminations of exterior wall assemblies... and similar locations where moisture could enter the wall."

Don't get me wrong. I'd like nothing better than to hear I have nothing to worry about. I just don't understand why every other house has the flashing but mine doesn't. It seems too easy for the siding installer to say it's not needed and the other guys were doing overkill.

Thanks,

Jay

http://www.dca.state.ga.us/developme...ioncodes/progr
ams/downloads/code

I have seen deterioration on hardy plank. If I can find pic I will post it.

Originally Posted by Jay Reeder

I was thinking that the following "general requirement" would apply here:

"A water-resistive barrier is required in accordance with local building code requirements. The water-resistive barrier must be appropriately
installed with penetration and junction flashings in accordance with local building code requirements. Flashing is required over horizontal
protruding and exposed trim. James Hardie will assume no responsibility for water infiltration."

from http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/insta...mxld_south.pdf

Am I reading this correctly?

Jay,

It does apply there ... as stated ... (underlining is mine) "A water-resistive barrier is required in accordance with local building code requirements. The water-resistive barrier must be appropriately installed with penetration and junction flashings in accordance with local building code requirements. Flashing is required over horizontal protruding and exposed trim. James Hardie will assume no responsibility for water infiltration."

I.e., the water resistive barrier and its installation is to be 'in accordance with local codes'.

However, 'the flashing' "is required over horizontal protruding and exposed trim".

If you look at Figure 5 you will see flashing under the lap siding and over the trim below, which is above a deck surface, and, at Figure 7 you will see flashing under the lap siding and over trim below.

HOWEVER, your installation is plank siding above brick veneer, and, unlike the two above examples, brick veneer is acknowledged as 'water goes through it and is drained down the back side' so keeping water out of the brick is not the big concern, keeping water off the back wall behind the brick veneer is a big concern.

I stated the above to explain why the flashing over the brick on the adjoining houses does not extend entirely out over the brick, but does extend out over the air gap behind the brick veneer.

While the instructions are not completely clear cut on this, yes, it should have a flashing there, not to protect the Hardie Plank from the brick, or vice versa, but to help drain water out from under the Hardie Plank siding and over the brick, helping keep the water off the wall behind the air space behind the brick veneer.

Of course, though, that brings up another issue which is not visible and yet is almost assuredly there - the mortar was likely not struck off when the brick veneer was laid up, meaning it is likely bridging the air gap, or even mostly filling the air gap, between the brick and the wall behind.

Jay, look at your second photo where the Hardie Plank meets the brick, you will see the exposed air gap. That's just going to let water blow right into that air gap and onto the wall behind the brick veneer.

David,

I could not get your link to work.

Here is a link to the Georgia Amendents to the I-Codes: DCA | Georgia's Construction Codes

Scroll down to "Current Codes as Adopted by DCA - Mandatory Codes: "

Below that is "Errata to the Code Amendments "

Gunnar hit the nail on the head. The other homes have it which indicates it is a requirement. Yours has been omitted. Why would your home be any different? It also is dumb to use hardi siding this particular fashion as it will be prone to weather and damage. It would have been better to carry the brick up to the underside of the vinyl siding.

Hopefully this will work,
DCA | Georgia's Construction Codes

Jay:

Brick Veneer to Siding Flashing Transition

Aaron

Hardiplank deterioration. Jerry you are fast!

David,

Do you happen to have 1) a picture taken from a higher point which shows the detailing of that roof/wall junction 2) a wider shot of that area?

Michael. Sorry I do not.

Thanks for the quick reply. It's kind of a sticky situation as builder is a good friend. I'm just wondering if this is worth digging my heels in over. I agree and don't care about the money... any advice you could offer would be appreciated.

Again, I think Jay needs to hire a good local inspector. As for the friendship, it was over when you hired the guy to build your home. I would worry more about my home that I'm paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for more than a casual friendship that will survive if it is strong enough no matter what the problems are.

Thank you all for your assistance.

This morning I met with the contractors and builder. In the end, they agreed to pull off the siding band and install the flashing but there was a lot of talk about how things might get torn up during the process and I balked.

We installed vinyl windows in this house and the siding band butts up against them. I already found out how fragile those windows can be when the brick guys banged a few up. My fear is that when they pull that band off they'll crack a few of the vinyl windows with hairline cracks and I'll have an even bigger problem down the road. Not to mention that this project is cost plus and I might get stuck with paying for some of that.

The top row of bricks is slanted down and away from the siding and we have a drip edge above the band. What we finally decided to do was have the brick guys come out and fill any gaps in the top of the brick wall (near the siding) with mortar and after it dries, we'll caulk over it. I'm sure it will be fine. Unfortunately it will become a maintenance issue more than it would have. If any water does get down there then the flashing and weep holes inside the brick wall will hopefully manage.

At this point I think that's the most prudent course of action.

Scott - you're right and I appreciate your candor.

Thanks again,

Jay

I just received a reply from James Hardie. I'll post here in case this issue is helpful for others...

From: Mark Van Dorselaer [mailto:Mark.Dorselaer@Jameshardie.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 1:55 PM
To: Jay Reeder
Subject: RE: Question re: Hardie Siding installation in Georgia

Jay,

Butting to mortar or masonry - Best Practice Recomendation
butting to mortar or masonry - Best
James Hardie® siding and trim products should not be butted directly against mortar or masonry, including stone and brick. In these situations, a flashing should be installed to isolate the trim or siding from the mortar or masonry.



Thank You
Mark Van DorselaerJames Hardie Building Products
800-942-7343

Jay. I respect your decision but the reality is it is wrong. Any decent carpenter could remove the trim without damaging the windows.
More than likely your builder friend had a siding subcontractor. He should really pass the repair/ cost on to them. Will not cost him a dime. Have them re due it. How many linear feet is there? Really should not be a big job.

Need a big favor. Can you please give us the name and color of the brick, hardie, and stone you used? It's very sharp looking and just what we are looking to do on our house. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

The builder failed to install the proper flashing. The builder should be responsible for the correction and any damage ensued while doing the correction. Have him fix it.

Originally Posted by David Banks

Jay. I respect your decision but the reality is it is wrong. Any decent carpenter could remove the trim without damaging the windows.
More than likely your builder friend had a siding subcontractor. He should really pass the repair/ cost on to them. Will not cost him a dime. Have them re due it. How many linear feet is there? Really should not be a big job.

The quality of all of the work in the pictures is poor at best. The proper repair is minor. If he is a true friend he should be fighting for you to make sure the job is proper. And if he cannot get it repaired properly he should do it himself This makes we wonder about the quality of the rest of the home?!! You definately need to document this and any other issues, you may have future problems up the road!! Also hardie siding has alot of wood fibre in the mix. I am a fan of hardie, but with any product it must be installed properly. I am not an inspector but the price of a good inspection(whole house) now may save you tens of thousands later. just my 2cents. After thinking and looking at the pictures some more are you sure you even have james hardie (not hardi) siding? there are alot of knock offs out there. Also grout has to cure for 30- 90 days before you can caulk it to promote proper adhesion, you dont want to go that route. just added another cent

Originally Posted by David Banks

Jay. I respect your decision but the reality is it is wrong. Any decent carpenter could remove the trim without damaging the windows.
More than likely your builder friend had a siding subcontractor. He should really pass the repair/ cost on to them. Will not cost him a dime. Have them re due it. How many linear feet is there? Really should not be a big job.

The quality of all of the work in the pictures is poor at best. The proper repair is minor. If he is a true friend he should be fighting for you to make sure the job is proper. And if he cannot get it repaired properly he should do it himself This makes we wonder about the quality of the rest of the home?!! You definately need to document this and any other issues, you may have future problems up the road!! Also hardie siding has alot of wood fibre in the mix. I am a fan of hardie, but with any product it must be installed properly. I am not an inspector but the price of a good inspection(whole house) now may save you tens of thousands later. just my 2cents

Regardless of what the Code is, the pictures show it needs flashing. Pic 1 and 2 show open gaps and a slight bit of paint deterioration at the corner. Granted the brick shelf is angled nonetheless the area appears to be getting hit with a fair amount of water. Thinking water or snow seepage isn't going to get into those gaps, behind the brick and cause issues to the wall over time isn't rationale. Not sure how much of a friend he really is. Sorry.

despite my feelings that this idea could /should be a new topic, I will
add my $0.02 worth of field experience here. I recently was called in to a
large residential job, 14 years old, with wood clapboard, over tyvek, with
flange mounted Anderson windows, and 5/4 x 5 pine wrapped casings., as well as
semi-ornate multi-laminated 1x corner board trim and a 5/4x8 water table around the entire perimeter of the house. Having watched framing contractors pre-wrap the entire structure with 9 ft house wrap before standing the walls up, and siding contractors just nailing away without any regard for flashings, splines, counter flashings etc, i knew , before even getting a flat bar out, that this job was going to be a problem....Surface visual inspection show absolutely no problems, but after further inspection, water infiltration from the siding/watertable detail had wicked moisture behind the siding, thru the housewrap and rotted the entire bottom sheet of OSB sheathing to the point that a sponge has more structural strength than the sheathing that I exposed. Fortunately for the property owner, the framing contractor had used galvanized sheathing H-clips for the 2x6 exterior wall construction 24"oc, and the space stopped the wicking from continuing.. In a northern exposure, an area that never saw sunlight, this deterioration had progressed an addition 2 inches into the framing studs and insulation. Additionally, the tyvek materials was as fragile as toilet paper.

It is my contention, that water can go anywhere it wants with a little persuasion from the wind, piling snow, etc...and that all wall/roof penetrations need to be flashed/counter-flashed from all sides, despite the cosmetic appearance and that the facade details be designed to NOT trap that moisture.

Caulking the hardie/brick detail on the OP's project only traps moisture and forces it into areas, in ways that are un-imagineable. Sliding a flashing behind the skirt without addressing the vapor barriers and splines and counter flashings won't help much.
Unfortunately, most siding/shingling contractors rely on the wall surfaces to have been properly flashed by the framing contractor, and no one wants to be responsible.

Herein lies the dilemna.....which is worse..........
Not preparing the structure properly before the siding install VS
Siding over an inferior/ inadequate wall/roof surface.

sorry for being long winded.....my vent for the day

David

Herein lies the dilemna.....which is worse..........
Not preparing the structure properly before the siding install VS
Siding over an inferior/ inadequate wall/roof surface.

One way to look at it is like a paint job. You can be the best painter in the world but if the prep isnt correct, it will still look bad and peel. Its alot easier to re-paint than to re-prep and re-paint.

Personally, I feel that both are a problem and i agree water defies gravity. But when it comes down to it, the worst problem is the general contractor involved. A major part of his job is to make sure all work is properly done, whether by him or any and all sub contractors.

Sorry to bother, can you please tell me the color of the brick, paint, and stone that you used? It looks great.

Originally Posted by Dustin Schadt

Sorry to bother, can you please tell me the color of the brick, paint, and stone that you used? It looks great.

I suspect the original poster came, got some responses, went, and will not be back, which means you will likely not receive a response for your request, which is the second time you've asked - just letting you know the likely reason you have not received a response back.

Just as hardi siding on a side wall abutting a roof it needs to be held up a bit from the brick just as the siding gets held up off of roof shingles. when they pull the hardi trim off they need to cut a strip off of it before reinstalling it. The flashing goes on and the the trim goes back on set up off of the flashing a bit but I hate the recommended 2 inches as they did for sidewall to roof shingles or fascia to roof shingles. Georgia does get snow and there is freezing weather.

Originally Posted by Jay Reeder

We're building a house down here in Georgia and the siding installer didn't put flashing between the brick wall (3 ft tall) and hardi siding band above. All the other houses have that flashing but he said they didn't need it because the drip edge on the top of the band will prevent water from getting in the brick wall cavity.

Should I be concerned?

These are pictures of the home we're building with the drip edge above the trim band but no flashing between the trim band and the brick:




These are pictures of a home in our area that did include the drip edge above the trim band and the flashing between the band and the brick wall:




I read about IRC 703.8 and UBC 1402.2/1405.3 in other posts here. Would the construction of our brick/siding pass that code?

Thanks for any advice... Jay

This might help.

http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/insta...panel-hz10.pdf


Tech 9 Home Inspections

Having a drip flash on the bottom of the hardie panel is just not enough in this case. Moisture can still get in everywhere below the hardie panel.

There should have been a weather barrier continuous behind the hardie panel over the sheathing continued right down to overlap the brick. The barrier would need to be sealed to the brick with Henry mastic.

Then a prepainted metal flash over top of the membrane from 3 inches above the bottom of the hardie panel again overlapping the brick.

The brick sill itself is porous and not a great idea for carrying water away from the structure but the mortar looks in good condition.

Originally Posted by Adrian Dunevein

Having a drip flash on the bottom of the hardie panel is just not enough in this case. Moisture can still get in everywhere below the hardie panel.

There should have been a weather barrier continuous behind the hardie panel over the sheathing continued right down to overlap the brick. The barrier would need to be sealed to the brick with Henry mastic.

Then a prepainted metal flash over top of the membrane from 3 inches above the bottom of the hardie panel again overlapping the brick.

The brick sill itself is porous and not a great idea for carrying water away from the structure but the mortar looks in good condition.

It looks to me like the top course of bricks are not sloped enough to let water drain away from the hardie board siding. It looks like repointing was done on the corners. Tyvek or similar should be behind the siding. IMO I would remove the board sitting on top of the brick, and a would cut the tyvek horizontally and install flashing under the tyvek then replace the board so that the flashing doesn't make contact on the bottom of the hardie siding allowing wicking. IMO I would use Z flashing that would cover the entire top course of bricks. If the Hardie board is cut to size in any way the cut side should be sealed with and approved wood sealant before installation.

I also see a future problem arising. The brick is also in contact with the ground. This will wick water up the wall and cause spalling/wood rot. Corrective measures will prevent further decay. Typically 6-8" should be the clearance between the ground and the finished siding. If the brick is sitting on a steel angle in contact with the ground the angle could rust and expand causing mortar cracking.


Tech 9

Originally Posted by Tech 9 Home Inspections

...
I also see a future problem arising. The brick is also in contact with the ground.
Tech 9

If brick is a problem, what do you suggest to be in contact with the ground?

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

If brick is a problem, what do you suggest to be in contact with the ground?

The foundation as in the concrete foundation as in the brick being 6 to 8 inches above the ground earth. Weep holes and or cracks in the mortar below grade aid for insects and or water intrusion.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

If brick is a problem, what do you suggest to be in contact with the ground?

Typically the foundation is made of concrete. The steel angle is usually 6-8" above the ground. Brick and concrete have different absorbtion capabilities. We prefer concrete hear in sub zero weather.

Wouldn't you suggest that the brick not be in contact with the ground.
If I'm missing something here, please fill me in.

Originally Posted by Tech 9 Home Inspections

...
Wouldn't you suggest that the brick not be in contact with the ground.
If I'm missing something here, please fill me in.

Around here its common to have the brick in contact with the ground.
Its not only common, but I don't recall seeing brick siding that stopped short of the ground.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Around here its common to have the brick in contact with the ground.
Its not only common, but I don't recall seeing brick siding that stopped short of the ground.

Here are a couple of pics from a home I inspected the other day.

Originally Posted by Tech 9 Home Inspections

Here are a couple of pics from a home I inspected the other day.

Not that you needed bigger pictures but I have never seen any so small. You don't have to shrink them that much to get them on here.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Not that you needed bigger pictures but I have never seen any so small. You don't have to shrink them that much to get them on here.

Sorry, here they are. These ones are from the same house.

Originally Posted by Tech 9 Home Inspections

Wouldn't you suggest that the brick not be in contact with the ground.
If I'm missing something here, please fill me in.

There is no problem having the brick in contact with, or even below grade level, as long as the required 1" minimum air space was fully grouted - done all the time, approved by code, and approved by the Brick Institute of America (now called something else).

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

There is no problem having the brick in contact with, or even below grade level, as long as the required 1" minimum air space was fully grouted - done all the time, approved by code, and approved by the Brick Institute of America (now called something else).

Would that be for structural brick? I wouldn't recommend it as a good practise for brick veneer which is what it looks like in the pics from the above poster.

Any brick in contact with soil in a northern climate is asking for trouble. Its just not an acceptable practice up here.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Any brick in contact with soil in a northern climate is asking for trouble. Its just not an acceptable practice up here.

That may be, but you and Tech 9 are way North of the OP's location ("down here in Georgia").

Clay brick is like a sponge, and they do get frost in Georgia. Freeze thaw cycles will pop the face of the brick eventually, not to mention possible wood frame damage if there is no gap or its damaged, or the weep holes are covered with soil.

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Clay brick is like a sponge, and they do get frost in Georgia. Freeze thaw cycles will pop the face of the brick eventually, not to mention possible wood frame damage if there is no gap or its damaged, or the weep holes are covered with soil.

Guess I'll tell everyone they have been doing it wrong...
for the last couple hundred years.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

Seems to me that if the other homes in the neighborhood are flashed, then this one should be as well. Unfortunately, not everything is cut and dried. And, I don't know all of the manufacturers' installation instructions.

If it is Hardie, it isn't likely to rot, if that is your concern.

While Hardie won't rot like wood it can certainly fall apart. This is why the install instructions require clearance from surfaces as those previously stated.

Here is just a quick example I've got more photos somewhere on this computer. I couldn't validate if this was Hardie or Certainteed, but it is cement fiber.

https://plus.google.com/photos/11148...CIL-jd7NsK-pTQ