Thread: 12-10 compression connectors (butt end) in primary panelboard

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I saw these were discussed on grounding wires within main service equipment in past threads, but all I could see on these are the words/letters 12-10. They were obviously used in an upgrade. main Service equipment was a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc with no main breaker(which I stated needs replacement anyway) However, the Electrician who apparently did this connector work is arguing with Buyer agent that "these connectors are allowed". While I recommended that Buyer obtain and use their own non-biased Electrician, I was just wondering if there was specific code line I could just reference to this other guy, or am I the one who is wrong. I know 12-10 is not residential permanent wiring. Just discussion, as I do not intend to argue with a licensed Electrician but i would like to know if I am right for future sightings of this. This is a first for me, but I can't believe this is allowable or I would see it more than once in a decade. I also wrote up neutrals/grounds on same bus...the basement was electrical DIY nightmare...

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Originally Posted by chris viscomi

IMG_2768.jpgphpEVbgtyAM.jpgphpdpZe4fAM.jpg

I saw these were discussed on grounding wires within main service equipment in past threads, but all I could see on these are the words/letters 12-10. They were obviously used in an upgrade. main Service equipment was a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc with no main breaker(which I stated needs replacement anyway) However, the Electrician who apparently did this connector work is arguing with Buyer agent that "these connectors are allowed". While I recommended that Buyer obtain and use their own non-biased Electrician, I was just wondering if there was specific code line I could just reference to this other guy, or am I the one who is wrong. I know 12-10 is not residential permanent wiring. Just discussion, as I do not intend to argue with a licensed Electrician but i would like to know if I am right for future sightings of this. This is a first for me, but I can't believe this is allowable or I would see it more than once in a decade. I also wrote up neutrals/grounds on same bus...the basement was electrical DIY nightmare...

Those LOOK like automotive connectors and the 12-10 would refer to the wire size allowed. Not sure if they are allowed on residential wiring, especially on solid rather than stranded wire. That would take some research to confirm or deny use.

Jim is undoubtedly right. It would depend on the listing of that particular connector. My box of crimp connectors is not nearby, so I can't check those. Of course, mine are probably not the same brand as the ones in this panel. Best bet would be to take a look the next time you are in the local hardware store or building center (no brand names - don't want to advertise any companies without being paid).

Let your client know that the electrician needs to provide the documentation that says the connectors are listed for that use.

My gut feeling is basically - if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't.

This was discussed at great lengths and finally resulted in a statement from the man....

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ice-panel.html

Skip on down to JP's Post #48

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...conductors-pdf

Butt that was only one brand of connector. Some brands are marked with lettering to show they are approved for solid wire.
I would suggest the NEC doesn't have specific rules prohibiting all the dumb things that can be done, but the work must be done in a workman-like manner.

Y'all have a great day.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

This was discussed at great lengths and finally resulted in a statement from the man....

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ice-panel.html

Skip on down to JP's Post #48

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...conductors-pdf

Butt that was only one brand of connector. Some brands are marked with lettering to show they are approved for solid wire.
I would suggest the NEC doesn't have specific rules prohibiting all the dumb things that can be done, but the work must be done in a workman-like manner.

Y'all have a great day.

My question is if the butt splices are listed by a recognized NRTL, such as UL, and if so are they installed per instructions?? There is no marking on them other then wire size range from what I can see, that just screams automotive to me.

The "workman like manner" is not really enforceable as it's pretty subjective, I love neat panels but those are few and far between.

Originally Posted by chris vis

I know 12-10 is not residential permanent wiring.

Both #12 and #10 and standard wiring sizes in residential and commercial so I am not sure where you got this knowledge from.

You call this a primary panel. You would be better off to use either service or non-service panel, AKA subpanel. If this is the service where is the main breaker? If it is the service panel there is no issue if grounds and neutrals share the same bar. I would say it is based on the bond screw being installed, but now you do not have a disconnect means that complies.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Both #12 and #10 and standard wiring sizes in residential and commercial so I am not sure where you got this knowledge from.

I understand 12-2, 12-3, 12-4 not 12-10. I saw on another post these may only be allowed on stranded cable (non-residential) but regardless of all that, I cannot assume that the small amount of info gleaned from the connector "12-10" means UL listed to accept size 12 AND size 10....I just do not know...

Originally Posted by Jim Port

You call this a primary panel. You would be better off to use either service or non-service panel, AKA subpanel....

I do not use the word subpanel...nor does the word appear in the NEC, but this was not the main service equipment, as I stated that was a Federal Pacific box. This was the first panel downstream. There is no "real word" that anyone likes...LOL.

The Word: Subpanel | The ASHI Reporter | Inspection News & Views from the American Society of Home Inspectors

"Rated for use up to 600 volts. Temperature rating up to 221°F (105°C). For splicing 12 gauge to 10 gauge wire sizes. Use with any standard wire crimping tool. Flared wire entry for easy wire insertion. Made in the USA."

Yellow Vinyl Butt Splices 12-10 Gauge 100 Pieces - Wiring Products

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

"Rated for use up to 600 volts. Temperature rating up to 221°F (105°C). For splicing 12 gauge to 10 gauge wire sizes. Use with any standard wire crimping tool. Flared wire entry for easy wire insertion. Made in the USA."

Yellow Vinyl Butt Splices 12-10 Gauge 100 Pieces - Wiring Products

there are millions of these and they are not all the same. The one you are linking to does not have the markings 12-10 like mine.

Without a maker's mark I just have to default to a "Inspector is not sure if they are proper" statement. However, i do not get the warm and fuzzy feeling from a lot of Electricians that this is normal practice.

Originally Posted by chris vis

I do not use the word subpanel...nor does the word appear in the NEC, but this was not the main service equipment, as I stated that was a Federal Pacific box. This was the first panel downstream. There is no "real word" that anyone likes...LOL.

The Word: Subpanel | The ASHI Reporter | Inspection News & Views from the American Society of Home Inspectors

Then call this the service panel. That is what it is and how the NEC addresses it.

Originally Posted by chris vis

I understand 12-2, 12-3, 12-4 not 12-10. I saw on another post these may only be allowed on stranded cable (non-residential) but regardless of all that, I cannot assume that the small amount of info gleaned from the connector "12-10" means UL listed to accept size 12 AND size 10....I just do not know...



I do not use the word subpanel...nor does the word appear in the NEC, but this was not the main service equipment, as I stated that was a Federal Pacific box. This was the first panel downstream. There is no "real word" that anyone likes...LOL.

The Word: Subpanel | The ASHI Reporter | Inspection News & Views from the American Society of Home Inspectors

Sorry, but subpanel does appear in the NEC. Ask Jerry.

Originally Posted by chris vis

IMG_2768.jpgphpEVbgtyAM.jpgphpdpZe4fAM.jpg

I saw these were discussed on grounding wires within main service equipment in past threads, but all I could see on these are the words/letters 12-10. They were obviously used in an upgrade. main Service equipment was a Federal Pacific Stab-Loc with no main breaker(which I stated needs replacement anyway) However, the Electrician who apparently did this connector work is arguing with Buyer agent that "these connectors are allowed". While I recommended that Buyer obtain and use their own non-biased Electrician, I was just wondering if there was specific code line I could just reference to this other guy, or am I the one who is wrong. I know 12-10 is not residential permanent wiring. Just discussion, as I do not intend to argue with a licensed Electrician but i would like to know if I am right for future sightings of this. This is a first for me, but I can't believe this is allowable or I would see it more than once in a decade. I also wrote up neutrals/grounds on same bus...the basement was electrical DIY nightmare...

Those are compression connectors for use with 12 awg or 10 awg in size. IE: 10 to 10 or 12 to 12. A service panel is not to be used as a junction box. Maybe the wire was stolen and because of that, the splices were made. Now that is a judgement call on your part as an inspector. Replacing the wire in the whole house could cost thousands.

Originally Posted by Scott Turner

Those are compression connectors for use with 12 awg or 10 awg in size. IE: 10 to 10 or 12 to 12. A service panel is not to be used as a junction box. Maybe the wire was stolen and because of that, the splices were made. Now that is a judgement call on your part as an inspector. Replacing the wire in the whole house could cost thousands.

This appears to be a sub-panel and as such should be 4 wire with the hots and neutrals isolated.

Originally Posted by chris vis

I understand 12-2, 12-3, 12-4 not 12-10. I saw on another post these may only be allowed on stranded cable (non-residential) but regardless of all that, I cannot assume that the small amount of info gleaned from the connector "12-10" means UL listed to accept size 12 AND size 10....I just do not know...

You are comparing a cable description with a wire size range. The 12-10 does not mean 10 #12's. It means it is good for both #12 and #10 conductors.

Originally Posted by Scott Turner

. A service panel is not to be used as a junction box. Maybe the wire was stolen and because of that, the splices were made. Now that is a judgement call on your part as an inspector. Replacing the wire in the whole house could cost thousands.

I'd like to see a code reference that says splices in a panel, service or otherwise, are an issue.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

I'd like to see a code reference that says splices in a panel, service or otherwise, are an issue.

The NEC allows splices in a panel .312.8 IIRC.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

The NEC allows splices in a panel .312.8 IIRC.

Yeah, spot on. Question is why nobody else can find it.

I don't know how many letters I've written for sellers that had a wrench thrown into a deal because there were splices in a panel. And, with stupid things like Arc-fault stuff forced on people you're going to see a lot more of it.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Yeah, spot on. Question is why nobody else can find it.

Or can find the requirements for derating for BOTH ambient AND lack of maintaining spacing.

I don't know how many letters I've written for sellers that had a wrench thrown into a deal because there were splices in a panel.

I don't know how many letters, emails, phone calls I've made for inspectors to electricians who just don't get it on derating. Some electricians pooh-paw it and other things in the code that they don't like ... news flash ... the code is not a "pick and choose what you like" book.

And, with stupid things like Arc-fault stuff forced on people you're going to see a lot more of it.

Arc-faults being one of those "pick and choose what you like" items - HEY GUYS ... IT IS IN YOU NEC CODE BOOK ... you know that code book you keep going to so you can write letters for OTHER things ... yeah, that is in that same code book.

There are things in the codes that I don't necessarily agree with either, but those things ARE CODE ... quit grumbling about it and start doing what is required ... were you around when GFCI protection came into the code? Same grumbling then as for AFCI protection now ... and, yeah, GFCIs proved to be a good thing over time ... deal with it.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Yeah, spot on. Question is why nobody else can find it.

I don't know how many letters I've written for sellers that had a wrench thrown into a deal because there were splices in a panel. And, with stupid things like Arc-fault stuff forced on people you're going to see a lot more of it.

Hi Bill,
i agree with you. Knowledge has a lot to do with experience as I try to keep up with the NEC code cycles and terminology changes. I seldom get involved with inspection forums for the most part due to the time spent doing electrical books required for keeping up with electrical interpretation between subject descriptions and product implementation.
(i.e. The above title mentions "compression" connectors and the picture shows crimp splice connectors. There is a difference in the termination type and required 'listed' tools that are needed for a certified usage.)

I know what you are saying and wish that each professional inspector owned a White Book and NEC 70 to be on the same page for an understandable dialog. Stupid things like Arc-fault technology need to be understood in product function and the proper installation required in order to explain the failures that can be avoided.

New technology is advancing so rapidly that even the code panels can't keep up with correct product applications. (I.e. Dual Function circuit products and the wiring installation that affects breaker protection has been available since 2014. How many inspectors even have an idea of what D-F does?)
I agree with and thank you for mentioning "why no one else can find it." Regards, rbj

Hey Jerry

I was around when GFCIs came on scene and have been a vocal advocate ever since. And, along the way, lost a friend because I couldn't convince him to install one in some wiring he was doing at home.

I wire to code, always have, always will. I don't need you preaching to me to convince me that's what has to be done to be legal. Whether legal is "right" is an entirely different matter.

However, in my 45 years in the electrical field, I've seen evidence of many problems, including fires, started by poor connections that overheated. No evidence of arcing in these instances. The evidence I do find of arcing when I do find it is on panel busses - before the AFCI protection.

I read articles on Arc fault devices regularly and marvel at the number of people who put up a good case for the things not working as advertised. Me, the only testing I can do on them is see how long and over what distance 120 VAC can sustain an arc.

Now, if the devices had been thoroughly tested and proven to work, and actually existed as a marketed product before being foisted off on the American public I'd support them wholeheartedly. Instead what we got was junk thrown onto the market and electrical contractors were, and still are, being used as a test bed for the things. I find it hard to believe what it took early on to get a customer's job working. Megging wire before and after installs, having to re-examine wire installations, and, finally, swapping out AFCIs until one was found that wouldn't trip on a circuit that had nothing wrong with it - often from a BIG box of previously pulled AFCIs that refused to work on another circuit somewhere else. Show me how that makes sense. The least the manufacturers could do is install a data port on them so that the latest algorithm for an "arc" can be loaded into all the prior crap they put out so any improvement can be taken advantage of, and maybe someday actually be able to give people what they paid for, a product that does what it's supposed to. If cars worked as well as AFCIs do there would be (more) clogged courts and rioting.

Anyway, get off your soap box on AFCIs. They are junk and until changes happen they will continue to be. And, people like me will be installing an average of $1000 worth of crap in new wiring jobs because the book says we have to. You make too many assumptions as to why AFCIs are being resisted by electricians. Actually, there's more material to mark up so it would seem like a no brainer if there were no other issues.

There used to be another guy on here that was as hard headed - except with him it was on everything.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

I wire to code, always have, always will. I don't need you preaching to me to convince me that's what has to be done to be legal. Whether legal is "right" is an entirely different matter.

I'm not preaching to you, I am only responding to the way you responded to others - you were preaching to them.

I pointed out that, like it or not, while you were complaining about the letters you write on behalf of electricians for 'stupid things home inspectors do', others of us have to write letters to on behalf of home inspectors for 'stupid things electricians do' ... guess you missed that part?

Then you went on to complain about AFCI ... right after complaining about home inspectors not knowing/doing code ... thus I pointed out that AFCI are also code ... deal with it.

I am sorry to hear that you lost a friend for not installing GFCI protection ... but think about all the people who lost friends because of houses which burned down for lack of AFCI protection.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Hey Jerry

I was around when GFCIs came on scene and have been a vocal advocate ever since. And, along the way, lost a friend because I couldn't convince him to install one in some wiring he was doing at home.

I wire to code, always have, always will.

There used to be another guy on here that was as hard headed - except with him it was on everything.

Yep,
i remember those days...15 amp GFCI's being tripped by shavers. Cost more to wire 12 awg BC's in order to use 20 amp GFI's to hold the circuit even when exterior front and back GFCI's became required. I swore a lot but still wired to code also.

I dislike soap box reasoning as much as all fellow electricians do on the job. Not to mention names, I believe the guy you are referring to was very existentially arrogant. Brian was kind enough to remove all my posts up to 2009 as I left this forum totally insulted and not wanting to deal with home inspectors that could not be brought up to AHJ review boards. Experience does not come out of a book and conjecture. Simple as that. Keep up the good inputs Bill. Best Regards, Ben Jacks...old guy who sees through the snow.

Originally Posted by Ben Jacks

Yep,
i remember those days...15 amp GFCI's being tripped by shavers. Cost more to wire 12 awg BC's in order to use 20 amp GFI's to hold the circuit even when exterior front and back GFCI's became required. I swore a lot but still wired to code also.
.
.
Simple as that. Keep up the good inputs Bill. Best Regards, Ben Jacks...old guy who sees through the snow.

Yep, experience comes from ... well ... experience ... and some of us are also experienced in electrical (as an example, I started pulling wire when I was 10 years old as my Dad was an electrical contractor - we did a lot or re-wiring knob & Tube with NM cable back then).

As a hands-on person working with GFCIs when they first came out - my experience is that electricians were rather careless in those days and that most of the GFCI tripping (which was called "nuisance" tripping, but was really mostly showing problems) was caused by the practices of the electricians at the time).

Once the wiring practices changes, GFCIs miraculously stopped "nuisance" tripping. And, yes, some of the original GFCIs did have manufacturing issues.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

The NEC allows splices in a panel .312.8 IIRC.

You are right, I don't what I was thinking about. Thanks.