Thread: Felt Paper

Most of the houses I inspect do not have felt paper extending down to the first course of shingles. Is this customary among roofers or should the felt paper come all the way down to where I can see it after lifting up the first course of shingles? In addition, if the felt can't be seen in this location should I call it out?

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Ideally, it would come all the way down and be over/under (another debate) the drip edge flashing or the back of the gutter. I see it stop short all the time and gave up fighting with the roofers about it. I don't mention it.... Others might.

Originally Posted by Stephen G Sheldon

Most of the houses I inspect do not have felt paper extending down to the first course of shingles. Is this customary among roofers or should the felt paper come all the way down to where I can see it after lifting up the first course of shingles? In addition, if the felt can't be seen in this location should I call it out?

SS: If the underlayment (felt) does not lap over the drip edge flashing at the eaves and lap under the drip edge at the rakes, it is wrong. If it does not completely cover the roof decking it is wrong.

Thanks, guys for your input. I don't see much drip edge flashing either.

Originally Posted by Stephen G Sheldon

Thanks, guys for your input. I don't see much drip edge flashing either.

What is this "drip edge flashing" stuff you speak of?

So, do you call out the lack of felt paper at the edge or is that relatively insignificant, especially since you don't really know for sure whether the felt is under the majority of the roof or not?

Originally Posted by Stephen G Sheldon

Most of the houses I inspect do not have felt paper extending down to the first course of shingles. Is this customary among roofers or should the felt paper come all the way down to where I can see it after lifting up the first course of shingles? In addition, if the felt can't be seen in this location should I call it out?

I stopped calling it out and refer to local building code guys. They in turn put it back on the manufacturers installation recommendations. Some roofing installers will swear that the felt goes over the drip edge, some under, and the debate goes on.

I did call one out the other week because the felt was installed only 1/2 way across. New construction.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

What is this "drip edge flashing" stuff you speak of?

AKA edge metal or DE flash or "L" metal, ya know...drip edge.

SS: If the underlayment (felt) does not lap over the drip edge flashing at the eaves and lap under the drip edge at the rakes, it is wrong. If it does not completely cover the roof decking it is wrong.

I agree with ADM, and can't recall seeing anything to the contrary-- anybody?

I write up short felt paper quite often, especially when I see plenty of other issues to list along with it. If everything else if detailed perfectly, and some felt paper is short, I will most likely ignore it.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

I agree with ADM, and can't recall seeing anything to the contrary-- anybody?

I write up short felt paper quite often, especially when I see plenty of other issues to list along with it. If everything else if detailed perfectly, and some felt paper is short, I will most likely ignore it.

I remember JP talking about this in a previous thread. I think in high wind areas the paper is tucked beneath the flashing so it doesn't peel off (taking the shingles with it).

Around here I've always thought it should go over the drip edge flashing (more rain than wind in most areas) so that any water is routed into the gutter rather than behind it. What I see is most new construction has no drip edge flashing but has the gutters that have their back edge bent up the roofline to mimick it.

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

I remember JP talking about this in a previous thread. I think in high wind areas the paper is tucked beneath the flashing so it doesn't peel off (taking the shingles with it).

Around here I've always thought it should go over the drip edge flashing (more rain than wind in most areas) so that any water is routed into the gutter rather than behind it. What I see is most new construction has no drip edge flashing but has the gutters that have their back edge bent up the roofline to mimick it.

MF: If JP actually said that lapping the drip edge flashing over the underlayment is a manufacturer's installation requirement, then JP may be FOS.

If you refer to the NRCA and AMRA documentation as well as the manufacturer's installation instructions I think you will find that the drip edge flashing is required and that the underlayment must be placed beneath the flashing at the rakes and over the flashing at the eaves. I do not recall having seen these requirements mitigated due to climate issues. Please correct me if I err.

By the way, long time no hear from JP. Must have his cat on a road trip?

I call out missing drip edge flashing all the time, especially on new construction. Most of the time there isn't even a fascia installed behind the gutter and the gutters are installed too low beneath the drip edge, and, with a slope instead of running flat.

Originally Posted by Michael Carson

Some roofing installers will swear that the felt goes over the drip edge, some under, and the debate goes on.

If there is a debate, it's between someone clearly wrong (under at the eaves) and someone clearly right (over at the eaves).

If they're concerned about wind they should be using a self-adhesive membrane at the eaves and rake. I have yet to see manufacturer instructions recommending or even mentioning as an "option" that the underlayment be placed under the drip edge at the eave.

I don't really see how there could be a debate on how the felt should be installed.

Think of yourself as a rain drop, if you entered at the rake and under the shingle, you would be on top of the drip edge. From there, if wind pushed you sideways, you would run on top of the felt paper...because the drip edge is OVER the felt at the rake. Now gravity pulls you down the roof to the eave. If the drip edge is over the felt here, you will run under it. This will eventually cause some rotting of the roof sheathing and sub-fascia. The felt needs to be OVER the drip egde at the eave so the rain drop runs harmlessly off the drip edge.

Felt is really just a secondary barrier of water infiltration. If it's not installed correctly or fully, there really is no reason to install it at all. Other than code required...

Our climate (and code) also dictates an ice barrier to extend a minimum of 2 feet beyond the interior wall line.

Randy

Originally Posted by Door Guy

I don't really see how there could be a debate on how the felt should be installed.

Think of yourself as a rain drop, if you entered at the rake and under the shingle, you would be on top of the drip edge. From there, if wind pushed you sideways, you would run on top of the felt paper...because the drip edge is OVER the felt at the rake. Now gravity pulls you down the roof to the eave. If the drip edge is over the felt here, you will run under it. This will eventually cause some rotting of the roof sheathing and sub-fascia. The felt needs to be OVER the drip egde at the eave so the rain drop runs harmlessly off the drip edge.

Felt is really just a secondary barrier of water infiltration. If it's not installed correctly or fully, there really is no reason to install it at all. Other than code required...

Our climate (and code) also dictates an ice barrier to extend a minimum of 2 feet beyond the interior wall line.

Randy

Door Guy: There can always be debate about givens that stems from stupid people doing something wrong for so long that it appears to them to be right.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

Door Guy: There can always be debate about givens that stems from stupid people doing something wrong for so long that it appears to them to be right.

I have been a contractor for almost 23 years and I by no means have done everything perfectly. However, I have learned a lot along the way. Many people will be closed minded and not even listen to something that is contrary to the way they are used to doing it. The point here is if you won't even listen to better or correct methods, your missing out on improving not only your business but your workmanship.

Drip edge? If I had a nickel for every NC POS I see that doesn't have one I'd be a rich man. I think the drip edge is one of the 1st items to go when it comes time to put in a lower bid. Properly hung gutters, I'd like to see some of those.
Back on topic though ... I right up lack of felt paper. For those of you in cold climates you may want to check local Codes. Our local Code requires ice/water shield at the 1st 3' up from the roof line. Essentially one roll width since the rolls are 3' wide. This was presumably done to combat damage from ice/snow damming.
The roofers really hate this requirement since around here the ice/water shield is $100 a roll.

http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...drip-edge.html

I think this is the thread I was quoting/remembering what JP had said. He mentions high wind about half way down the thread - post #21.

Now that I read it again I'm not sure that I was remembing it right. I just remembered something about high wind and holding the paper down.

Originally Posted by Markus Keller

Drip edge? If I had a nickel for every NC POS I see that doesn't have one I'd be a rich man. I think the drip edge is one of the 1st items to go when it comes time to put in a lower bid. Properly hung gutters, I'd like to see some of those.
Back on topic though ... I right up lack of felt paper. For those of you in cold climates you may want to check local Codes. Our local Code requires ice/water shield at the 1st 3' up from the roof line. Essentially one roll width since the rolls are 3' wide. This was presumably done to combat damage from ice/snow damming.
The roofers really hate this requirement since around here the ice/water shield is $100 a roll.

Hi Markus, If you live in an area that requires ice protection, you may want to verify the code. Our Michigan code requires it 24" above the interior wall line to extend to the lowest point of the roof. If a roof has a 2 foot overhang it would require more that just one row.

MRC 905.2.7.1
Our code is pretty much a replica of the International Code so if that is what your under, I would check it out. Yes, it is expensive but cheap compared to the problems it can solve.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

I have been a contractor for almost 23 years and I by no means have done everything perfectly. However, I have learned a lot along the way. Many people will be closed minded and not even listen to something that is contrary to the way they are used to doing it. The point here is if you won't even listen to better or correct methods, your missing out on improving not only your business but your workmanship.

DG: If you will read my post I think you will see that I was agreeing with you.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

DG: If you will read my post I think you will see that I was agreeing with you.

Hey AD, I know you were agreeing with me. My post was actually to agree with you about the stupid people you mentioned that won't change because they are always right no matter what. I was just trying to say that politely in the last post... Sorry, for the mix-up. Written words sometimes sound different than intended.

[Mock surprise]So wait... contractors putting on an $8000-10000 roof are actually balking over an extra $80-100 for ice and water protection?[/Mock surprise]

I put ice & water over my entire roof, the increased cost was so negligible compared to the longevity and protection it provided. Then again, I also put cement under every shingle (and used 6 nails per shingle) and glued my decking to the rafters, which are attached with hurricane straps. While I'm only in wind zone 2 the entire eastern seaboard is considered "hurricane susceptible" so I thought I might actually try to meet and exceed the guidelines.

Originally Posted by Corn Walker

[Mock surprise]So wait... contractors putting on an $8000-10000 roof are actually balking over an extra $80-100 for ice and water protection?[/Mock surprise]

I put ice & water over my entire roof, the increased cost was so negligible compared to the longevity and protection it provided. Then again, I also put cement under every shingle (and used 6 nails per shingle) and glued my decking to the rafters, which are attached with hurricane straps. While I'm only in wind zone 2 the entire eastern seaboard is considered "hurricane susceptible" so I thought I might actually try to meet and exceed the guidelines.

CW: Such attention to detail is rare. In my area it is non-existent.